From Ballet Dancer to Head of Community Management with MC Silfer

00:03 Welcome to another episode of revenue career ladder, your go to source for career stories, practical advice and actionable insights from revenue pros who have been there, done that and are here to help you climb towards your dream job. So in this episode, I'm joined by MC Silfa and we're to be chatting about a journey from ballet dancer to head of community management, which is seemingly wild. We had a

00:27 ice skater. So this is not too dissimilar, but I'm sure it's a very, different story. But it's, yeah, it's different to, I would say 80 or 90 % of the people we've had on in that it's a completely different start point to the, to the end point of where you are right now. But before we jump into that, how are you, I am very, very good. It's very sunny here in Copenhagen. I'm

00:52 You know, pretty busy at the moment. have a big, big event coming up in May. So I have a lot of stuff on my plate, but I'm happy to be here and also sharing a little bit about my random experiences and strange life story, I suppose, from being a ballet dancer to going into sales and now into community. And we did the standard British thing of discussing the weather as you for anyone who's not British, when you join a meeting with at least one or two Brits, there will always be.

01:20 How's the weather? Oh yeah, it's lovely and sunny. Oh, it's pissing it down. But yeah, it's also sunny here in Cardiff, which I'm pleasantly surprised about. So trying to make the most of it. But anyway, aside from weather, we always start these conversations with the first ever job, which to be, to be transparent, isn't the ballet dancer, but the ballet dancer bit sounds more exciting. let's, let's get the first ever job out of the way and then let's move on to the more exciting bit. So what was your first ever job? Oh, it was.

01:47 Cleaning a nursery or a daycare. So I did that after school. So it was like, you know, I would get the bus back from school. I think I was like 14. I got like three, three 50 an hour or something like nothing. Cleaned the toilets or the floors. And let's just say cleaning a nursery. That was probably my worst job, but I learned what like hard graft was then.

02:12 And I knew then when I had kids that kids were messy. It was kind of a good learning. So yeah, you were prepped from 14 about the mess of kids. Exactly. Exactly. But I was using that money and saving up money to go to ballet school. So that was kind of the premise of why I took those jobs. And also at the weekends, I was also a sales clerk. So I was on the floor at kind of a, it was a boutique for ballet and bridal wear.

02:42 So I was working from around nine in the morning till six at night on my feet, helping kids, helping adults, helping brides to be. So I think in that regard, I learned a lot of people skills and it helped me later on down the line. Now you mentioned that you, uh, this was age 14. So you were doing after school stuff, uh, the nursery during the week. And then at weekends you were doing the bridal boutique.

03:06 Yes, until I was 16. Yeah, so I was doing those two jobs for around two years. I mean, it speaks to work ethic in the sense of you said you were saving for something and you knew in order to get the money and save you needed to work, which is, think, a very, good start. I was listening to the radio yesterday and I heard mention of the minimum wage now being 12 pound 50. And I just when you said, yeah, when you you said three pound 50, I was like, OK, well.

03:33 I remember being paid in the realms of like 450 to 550 when I first started.

03:41 Showing my age. I'm showing my age here. We're both showing our age. Yeah, but yeah wildly different Well and the fact that you were able to work at 14 Yeah, because it was I technically wasn't allowed to work at that age But I had a paper round and things like that I think it was 16 by the time that I could get a was it 15 15 or 16 But yeah 12 pound 50 they don't know how lucky they've got it. No That's luxury 12 pound 50. I mean

04:08 I couldn't even buy a happy meal for £3.50. Yeah, I think it taught me a lot though. it was very much both jobs were hard in their own right. And I needed people skills for both of them. So I was working in a nursery. So I needed to see parents and know, chat with them as well. And then in the, you know, working in a

04:36 in a shop, you have to do that all the time. Talking to people, selling to people, making sure that they're happy, they're returning customers and stuff. I think at the end of the day, like it did teach me early on and yeah, £3.50. Like if, if I worked the whole day, like, you know, was pretty good money at that point in my life. Well, he is pretty too, pretty challenging a customer's basis. So kids difficult.

05:01 Kids parents difficult and then bridal boutique. I'm thinking bride's ill as you know, things not going quite right. Things not fitting wanting to be weighted on hand and foot with champagne and things like that's the images I've got my head. So a very, very, very good place to learn. So you mentioned there about saving up money to go to ballet school. So tell us about I think let's start with why you wanted to go to ballet school first and then we can talk about

05:27 Yeah, I started ballet at a very young age and I think it wasn't until I was around 10, 11 that I knew that I wanted to be a ballet dancer as a job or that it could even be a job. It was, I was dancing most evenings so I would clean at the nursery and then I would go and do my ballet classes until around like nine, nine thirty at night. And yeah, it just became my passion, I suppose. It was what I needed to do all the time.

05:55 wasn't that great at school. I was okay. I was like a mediocre student, but I would be like dancing in the drama hall and stuff at school. Like I would get out of PE to go and practice my routines and stuff. So the school understood, which was nice. And, you know, I often did competitions and like courses and stuff like with quite prestigious schools in the UK and they knew it was important. So I missed a lot of school actually to do that.

06:25 But I knew from a very young age that I wanted to do that. And if I wanted to do it, had to put in 200 percent. Otherwise, I wasn't going to make it. And what was it? What was the. I don't know, the penny drop moment or the point at which you realized or decided I can turn this into a career, and that's what I want to do. You said it was like aged 11, but what was it at age 11 that tip the balance? Yeah, so around.

06:49 11 I started to do kind of these vocational examinations and I was starting to do really well in them. And then after that doing lots of competitions and seeing results from that as well. And around 14, I went to the Royal Ballet School Associate Program, which meant like at the weekends, I had to travel up to Birmingham. was the Birmingham Hippodrome. place. That's a sarcastic joke for anyone who lives in the UK.

07:17 most gray city in the UK. mean, I'm from Northamptonshire originally, it's which is nice. It's the countryside's nice. There are nice bits. Yeah. There are nice bits. But going up to Birmingham doing that like over the weekend. And then at 16, I started auditioning for some of the like big vocational schools where you do it full time. And I got into the Royal Ballet School at 16.

07:45 So that was kind of when the when the penny dropped off now and doing it. Okay, so you you roughly age 11 you realized, okay, I'm I am quite good at this. Was it that you at that age understood that you could make money from a passion or was it the people around you kind of I don't mean as in make money from a passion in like a way in a negative way, but you realized I'm good enough and I think I could be paid for this or was it people around you saying you are good enough to go all the way?

08:13 I think it was more people around me. I had a really good support system. My ballet teacher at the time, she recognized that I had some talent and I could do this as a profession and she really pushed me. I was sometimes doing ballet classes with 16, 17 year olds at age 11. So it was very much that she pushed me forwards to do that. And I'm still like best of friends with her today, which is really cool. Now you mentioned so age 16 Royal Ballet. Yeah.

08:42 As in British? Yeah, so I was at the upper school in the Royal Ballet School in Covent Garden and I did that for three years. So that was like my training there. And I was the only girl from outside. those that don't know and probably majority of listeners won't know about the ballet world, but they have a lower school which is called White Lodge. So at age 11, you go there and you do ballet full time at age 11. I didn't do that. I had a normal

09:12 like teenage upbringing. I went to secondary school. I did normal stuff and then I did ballet as a hobby. But at 16, I got into the upper school and I was the only girl from outside that wasn't international or from the lower school already. So it was about also fitting in, learning. I was almost the underdog, so to speak, because I hadn't done it full time. So it was very much of a hard graph to get up to the standard that.

09:39 rest of the class already were but the director of the ballet school then saw some talent in me I suppose and that's why I got a place. this is a question for my own benefit I guess right so the Royal Ballet is it called the Royal Ballet because it was first commissioned or whatever for the Royal by royalty? Yeah so they are sponsored by the Royal Family as well so that's

10:02 that's it was called something else previous I think it was like the London City Ballet it was called before I might get that wrong I'm a bit rusty in my in my ballet history now but it did change names and yeah they they work closely with the Royal Family and the Royal Family go watch and sponsor and yeah and it is the as I understand it the creme de la creme the pinnacle of ballet schools in the in the UK at least or probably other countries as well

10:27 Yeah, exactly. It's, it's well renowned. So it was a pretty big deal to do that. And I got to dance with the company as well on the opera house stage. I got to tour around. even had like the experience of going to the U S going to Japan. Like it was a really, really cool time in my life with like so many experiences that I look back and just think, wow, I was super lucky. I just didn't realize it at the time.

10:53 Well, I said there's two questions I had jotted down in my notes and it was first, I think, because I'd quite like to understand though that period for you. So the first question is you've touched on a couple of points there about like the traveling things, but can you just run us through at a top level your career as a ballet dancer? So fairly like, you know, first few years was this, then we did this and this. So what, what did that look like for you and how many years we talking total?

11:19 Yeah, so big question. I've done a lot. So at 18, I graduated the Royal Ballet School. And then I actually my first job was in Ballet Island, which is a touring company. So I moved to Dublin. And then we were touring around for I think it was about four months. So I was literally going on a bus going to a new theatre, staying in a hotel on the next day, getting on a bus going to a new theatre, staying at a hotel. was like every day we were like hopping to a new theatre.

11:48 was tough and that was tough as like my first job as a professional ballet dancer but I also learned a lot. I learned about living with people and traveling with people 24-7 so that was that was cool but I wouldn't do it again and then afterwards I moved to the Netherlands so I was with the National Ballet there in Amsterdam which was really cool and I was there for almost two years and in the meantime there was some period in the summer that I was looking for.

12:18 for a job, I didn't have a job lined up. And then I was auditioning around as you do as a dancer, nothing is stable. And I think this is what people don't really understand being a dancer is you go where the job is, you audition around. And sometimes you have months where you don't have a job and you're living on beans and toast. Like it's, it's tough. And being a ballet dancer doesn't pay well anyway. So yeah, after that, I went to Copenhagen.

12:46 And it was just meant to be a six months job in the summer. And it was great. I had such a blast. I learned so many things. I fell in love with Copenhagen and then I went back to Amsterdam and then came back to Copenhagen again the next summer. I met my boyfriend who is my now husband, but we were doing this for like four years where we would meet each other in the summer. And then I would go to different theaters around the world just.

13:15 where the jobs were, and then would meet back in the summer again. So it was almost like a permanent job, but not being permanent just in the summer. And then after four years, we were like, fed up, we need to like just settle here, we settle here and we find jobs in the winter. If it's a dance job, great. If it's something else, like that's all right. But we have kind of, you know, our feet on the ground in one place with each other. And yeah, I've been in Denmark now for 18 years.

13:44 Okay, perfect, perfect whistle stop tour. I'd imagine some people were sitting there going, amazing, you only need to see your partner for the summer and then you get the rest of the year off. This is fantastic. Yeah, I mean, that sounds ideal. The second question I have is, you describe, because I think I'm really interested in this, I think it would provide a lot of context when we sort of ask, what did you learn from that period? Give us an example of like a, when you're on tour.

14:11 an average day, or month? Like what does that look for you when you are on tour day to day? Well, what does it look like? It changes greatly, but I would, on average, I would say you wake up, you have your daily training. So daily training is just a ballet class. Basically you warm up and that's usually an hour and a half to two hours long. So you're training, you're getting better and then you have rehearsals. So that could be like when in Copenhagen, for instance, we'd finish.

14:40 class, 10.30, 11 until three in the afternoon, I would have rehearsals. So that was rehearsing what was going to happen that evening, or it was rehearsing something that's going to happen months down the line, new choreography, learning new stuff. And then in the evening, we would then have shows. So that would, I would have like a small break in the middle of the day from around 3.30 till five. And then I'd have to go back to the theater, do makeup, do hair, warm up again.

15:10 So from 5.30 till 10.30 at night, I'd be working. So you do a show maybe at seven, eight in the evening and then get home again 10.30, 11. If I was doing Swan Lake or like a huge production, which is four acts long and you know, four hours long almost, then I wouldn't get home until like midnight, sometimes one o'clock in the morning, which was crazy.

15:35 And how many days a week were you expected? Like, is it five days working just not necessarily the same days as everyone else? Or is it like a seven day always on sort of thing? So when I was working in Copenhagen at the Pantomime Theatre, that's the summer job. So we were working Sunday through to Saturday, but we'd had Monday off. So it was it was six day work week. Six days.

16:00 Yeah. Okay. And then I think that's good. So that's set up a bit of context in terms of how long it was, sort of places you went, the sort of schedule. Now the follow-up sort of bigger question is what did you learn during that period? in from a, you can cover that off in terms of professional development, what you learn about yourself, but what did you learn in that big block of being a ballet dancer? Yeah, I think

16:26 This is going to sound really negative of me, but there is always someone better than you. There is always someone more talented than you. it sucks, doesn't it? really does, man. Still getting used to that myself. But you can learn from them. And I think your biggest kind of thing in your professional career is just to work hard. Work hard and good things will come. And that's what happened to me. I wasn't necessarily the most talented, but I would say I was one of, well, don't want to.

16:56 to like, you know, clap myself on the back or anything, but I feel like I was really driven. feel like I was really driven and, um, you know, hard work pays off. And I think that you can apply to any role that you work in. No, I, yeah, you're, the first person who's brought that up actually, that there's always someone better than you. And I think it applies in every walk, every aspect of life. So professionally they will like, I don't even know if there are like,

17:25 who would be the best of like, maybe in ballet and sports, there is quite literally the best in the world, you know, the gold medal, Usain Bolt, right? Gold medal, best fastest in the world. But when it comes to like professional side of things, there's always going to be someone with slightly different skills, better in certain areas than you, and they might be better at presenting, they might be quicker at executing things. So to get used to the fact that you're not necessarily going to be the best, I think is a is a very good piece of advice. It's humbling as well.

17:54 Yeah, it's frustrating. is very, frustrating. But if you it's kind of it reminds me of some of the stuff we cover off in the sale stoic. So the stoic methodology of, you know, focus on things that are in your control. And why would you care if someone's better than you? If you're if you're successful in what you're doing, isn't that enough? Does it matter if someone's better than you? Because it's someone that's subjective and that's it's quantifiable in terms of data. So like from a stoic point of view, like

18:21 Does it matter if you're happy, you're doing well, you're succeeding, you're developing and stuff. You don't have to be the best at something. So that's, that's very, very good piece of advice. And then the, the bit you mentioned that there's a YouTube channel that I subscribe to completely different topic or theme in the YouTube channel. But one of the guys, I guess, mottoes phrases is hard work beats talent. And he's turned that into HWBT, like a clothing line thing. And I, I'm a definitely a firm believer in the hard work beats talent.

18:50 especially in, I mean, it probably even more important in ballet and sports, you could be the fastest genetically, but if you can't be bothered to train, you're never going to be world champion. So that's a really, really nice thread that I think that people vein or thread that people should always remind themselves of. You might not have on paper again, on paper, same skill set, but hard work will always win out in the end. So two, two great bits of advice there. So why

19:20 Big question. Why did you leave? What came to an end? Why did you decide to stop being a professional ballet dancer? Well, I hate to bring it up because it feels like it doesn't exist anymore, but Covid. It was Covid. It's come up a lot in this series already, don't worry. OK. And I had two kids. So actually, after my first child, I went back to the theatre. I went back to dance.

19:47 and loved it. I actually felt like I was a better dancer, a better person, a better mum also for that. I knew already. you appreciated and you were more grateful of? so. Yeah, exactly. Like being on maternity leave here in Denmark, it's great. You have a year of maternity leave, but a year when you're not dancing is a long time. And I didn't, of course. I remember training with my baby three months old.

20:17 um, you know, on the dance floor, like, uh, and I would be training. So I didn't really give myself much time, I think. I wanted to come back. I was so driven, but I'm glad that I did that because I knew I could. And then after having my second child, COVID hit and theaters just shut down. Like, you know, it was the cinemas, it was the theaters, nobody was allowed to go. And I was just like...

20:43 shit, what am going to do? Like, I didn't know what else to do. I had, you know, no university degree. I didn't know what I wanted to do. I had no other drive than dance really. So it was like, I have no idea. It was almost a little bit of a crisis, a personal crisis, I suppose that I had. And I was still recovering from, you know, giving birth, becoming a mother of two. Let's just say having two kids is not easier.

21:13 It's, uh, would say it's people, people always are the second one's easier. You've, know what you're doing. You've got all, you've already got all the stuff. No, I don't know. Um, but it also made it harder in COVID.

21:28 Living in a foreign country, I was not around my family. know, thankfully I had my husband and, you know, we made our little bubble, I suppose. And I was trying, I was really, I was working out, I was trying to stay positive. Theatres are going to open, it's going to be great. And, you know, there was a period, I don't remember, like lockdown happened and then things got better, things opened up again. And then I was like, yes.

21:50 I can get back to dance. At this point, I was still wasn't allowed back into the dance studio because they had created their bubble and they weren't allowed people from outside. So I was training in my kitchen. I was using my kitchen to work out, like using it as a bar and that's a ballet bar, not a drinking bar. And yeah, it was, it was really tough, both mentally and physically. And then I had, you know, my 10 months old crawling around my feet, you know, wanting my attention all the time. And then.

22:20 think it was around September, October time, my director called and said, things are going bad again, theaters are shutting down for the second time. So at that point, it was just like a light bulb in my head. I was like, now's the time. I'm 34. I'm not going to wait till I'm 40. Just for everyone out there, like usually you retire at age 40 from dance, both because of your body, but also

22:48 know, there's younger generations coming up and you're kind of spilling, you know, you're sitting on a spot where some younger talent could, you know, take your spot, I suppose. So 40 is usually the cutoff point when you're a dancer when you retire. So I knew there wasn't long anyway, and it was the time to just move on. What I was going to do, I had no idea.

23:10 I was going to say you do read stories about professional sportsmen, sportswomen very more often than not, they because they dedicated their life to the profession. They didn't go to and they didn't stay in school. They didn't go to university. There's very few of them that you do read where it's like this professional rugby player. Oh, he's also a doctor. It's very rare that you read those stories. So it's it's interesting to we had the same discussion in a previous episode. It's interesting talking about.

23:39 what goes through your mind in terms of how you decide of what you're to do. So once you had made that decision, how did you look back to what you enjoyed at school? Did you look at what skills you would learn from being a ballet dancer to help inform your next step? Talk us through that. How did you decide what your next move was?

24:01 Yeah, so I've always been quite a creative person. I studied English literature at school and, you know, I enjoyed writing. There was like several things that, you know, I enjoyed doing. So I was looking more at kind of marketing roles. Sales came up as well. Also, there was a need for someone to speak English with a British accent here in Copenhagen, especially companies that were targeting the UK, for instance, or the US. So.

24:31 I was looking specifically at that and actually then I just applied for a lot of roles that kind of fit that. And I got a student role. So it was advertised as a student role, part-time. And at the time I was like, part-time is fantastic. You know, I have a small child at home and she was going to daycare, but it would be nice to like, just have it easy for her that I could.

24:56 be with her more and it got my foot in the door. So I actually, yeah, got a student job at a SaaS company here in Copenhagen that was targeting the UK market. And they were like, okay, you have a nice accent. It'd be nice on the phone. You'll be great. I had never used a computer. So Jamie, like, can you imagine? I had never like in my private life, yes, but for work, like I was a dancer, like I had never, I didn't know what bloody CRM was. Like it was a huge learning curve for me.

25:26 I was just, so when you said you took a student job, what was the job advertised as? So I was an SDR, Okay. Sales Development Representative. So my job was basically to phone UK customers and try and get them booked them into a meeting. That was what I was doing. What was the product or service? So at the time it was a personalization like SEO tool for e-commerce companies.

25:53 Okay, so the methodology behind it was I need a job. Here are my unique skills, which just so happened to be that you had a British accent based in, based in Copenhagen, which meant that you were, guess, a fine commodity in terms of being able to sell into the UK market. It makes sense, right? If I got a phone call from a US SDR, straight away, I'd be like, what on earth are you ringing me for? Like, it just wouldn't resonate. So that makes sense. So it's interesting because a lot of the people that I've spoken to that

26:23 went into sales, I would say a good 90 % of them either fell into it, as in they accidentally applied for a job and realized it was sales or it was just the first job that was available. More often than not, it's very, very rare that people come out of school and go, I want a career in sales. That's my goal. That's my dream. So kind of, it kind of fits with that. Um, so talk to us a little bit about, um, about that role. How, uh, how long were you a student? Did it become a

26:52 or student role? How did it become a full-time position? What happened? Yeah, so I was only there for, I think it was three months actually. I was lucky to then land a full-time role. But yeah, so what I was doing, I was just learning the ropes of being in SAS, I suppose, who our ICP was, how to be on the phone, how to pitch.

27:22 how to do kind of video outreach. that point, video outreach was like the new, like hot thing to do. Now everyone does it, but at that point, that's how I booked most of my meetings was through video outreach. And I learned a lot and actually really helped me being around students because I don't know if they took pity on me, but they helped me, helped me a lot. And, and I made some really good friends there as well. And actually one of the students ended up being a colleague of mine later on at another role. So.

27:51 was fun. Well actually, do you know what, being a student role and the fact that it was, you know, a few months is actually, it's almost as if it was a SGR training course, like an SGR bootcamp. It sounds like that almost. Yeah, so it sounds like with minimal, I don't want say risk, as in when you get a full-time job it's like, right, probation, whereas this sounds like there wouldn't have been a probation and it was just sort of an ongoing thing, which is a low-risk way.

28:22 low buy-in, low risk of learning how to be an SDR, which is great. And then you were continuing to look for a full-time role after a few months, you found a full-time role. what was the full-time role? Yeah. So I got a full-time role as an SDR again. So that was kind of a really nice foot in the door at a startup called Certainly, which was AI chat bot company.

28:48 that partnered with Zendesk and other kind of CS. I don't know if you know Dixar, it's a Danish. And I'm guessing you knew how to use a computer by this point. Yes, and the CRM system, which is good. OK, so you went in as an SDR, fully fledged SDR. So AI chatbot. Now, I've got the notes here, but I know you mentioned at this time AI was still, they were almost ahead of the curve. So in terms of selling AI

29:18 Back then, I'm trying to think back then. So back when people used to mention AI, ballpark, how many years ago are we talking? Oh, goodness. So this is three, almost four years ago. Cool. So it's mad, isn't it? Just three or four years ago, AI wasn't really a thing. But back then, when someone said AI, you were like, learning, technical. Do we need AI? Like, God, you need like engineers. was, it was completely different. So what, what was that like?

29:47 selling AI before AI was not before AI was a thing because artificial intelligence has been around for decades. But before AI was what we know it today. What was that like? It was tough. There was a lot of skepticism there that you had to kind of battle. Yeah, the lack of trust, the lack of trust. And also I was selling to CS leaders. So you know, that was customer support. Think about like big ecom brands.

30:16 they wanted to have a human touch, a human, you know, and trying to then say, well, AI can do this. And it was pretty amazing technology that we were doing. And it could, for instance, you know, integrate directly with Shopify, find out kind of your past orders. And, you know, it was, it was really before the time before the curve, but then that was really hard to then sell because people, you know, had this skepticism for it. And they believe that

30:42 human way was the best way. We had great numbers. It was more, think we were a small startup and, building a brand is difficult. And we went kind of the partnership route, which, which helped. with any startup, you know, you start seeing a little bit red flags and you're like, okay, I need to find something else. That was basically why I then moved on. But it was a great learning process. I got promoted twice in that role. So it overall was like,

31:10 amazing, amazing company to work for. And I've met some fantastic people that I'm still in contact with now that are, you know, really close to me in my life and my career. So

31:23 So how long were you there and what were the two titles you got promoted to? Yeah, so I was there for almost two years and after I think it was around six months, I got promoted to SDR team lead. And after that, then I got a new CRO in and she was fantastic. I'm still very, very good friends with her. She then promoted me to account executive. So that's how I kind of moved up the ranks there. So that was a fantastic experience. had

31:52 all of my background was being an SDR. So I knew then, you know, what it was to be an account executive. I worked very closely when I was an SDR with my account executive there. So it was kind of a smooth onboarding to that role, which was nice. And I knew the product, you know, through and through. So it was just a natural progression. So, you know, it was great. And then

32:20 that helped me get my other role as well. in that two years or two years is a good period. We have spoken about it in previous episodes where I think that to fully understand the role or a company or at least a function within a company. So sales in a company you have to do two years because the first year is the first time you've ever done a full 12 month cycle of that role in that company. The second year you're trying to do what you did last year but do it better. Like what have you learned? So

32:48 10, 20 % growth, whatever it is. Two years, you fully understand the company who you speak to, the processes. So two years is a good stint. in those roles, maybe let's focus more on the AE portion of it, because we've already discussed the SDR. What were the key things that you learned in the second year, whatever the AE portion of that role that you were able to take forward? Yeah, I think for me it was like

33:14 the full process, the sales process. When you're an SDR, you're only doing kind of the acquisition part, getting people into the meeting. And then you can just, you know, say, Hey, it's yours now. But being an account executive, it was definitely the process, the sales process, how to move it along quickly, efficiently, whilst, you know, building a relationship with those people in said deal and making sure that both they're qualified for your product.

33:43 That was a big thing as well in the product that we were selling was it was very, technical and making sure that they had the right integrations. I luckily worked very, very heavily with a sales engineer, solutions engineer, which helped me in my role tremendously.

34:00 If it wasn't for him, I don't know if I would have been very good at my role because anyone selling a technical product, I would recommend having some kind of solution engineer, you know, as, as a buddy also to help in the sales process as well. And I think with the product that we were selling, we, we sold S to SMBs, but it was mostly enterprise. And that was a huge learning in terms of going through RFPs and going through kind of any legal.

34:28 and procurement processes. That was a huge learning curve for me, but that's helped me also. Yeah, Joe, the solutions engineer thing, I think it's a good piece of advice or those that are some of the top performers leverage experts around them. So that's yeah, that's a great it's not because I think some people can sometimes feel uncomfortable with asking for help, but it's not asking for help in the sense of you can't do your job. It's that.

34:55 That's not your job to understand the solutions engineer side. And someone's better than you. Exactly. Yeah. So was it, I think I've covered this in every episode, but Stephen Barlow or Richard Branson, they say like your job as a CEO is to be really good at hiring people better than you to do the things that you can't do. And it's exactly the same in every single role, just, you know, slightly, slightly different relative to what you're doing. But as an AE with a technical project, it's your job.

35:21 to leverage the engineers you have around you, the SMEs, the subject matter experts in your business to help pitch, embed, onboard, whatever it is. That's part of your job. You're like an AE in simple terms, it's kind of project management. You're there to manage up to 10 to 15 stakeholders, all of which have different opinions, needs, areas of expertise.

35:49 And you're just there to make sure that the whole thing moves as smoothly as possible to get from A to B. So leveraging experts is a skill. So don't be afraid of asking for help and get someone in to help multi-thread it your end. Because as much as you want to multi-thread at the end of the people, the account you're selling into, you can multi-thread at your own end internally to help better, better sell or better manage that process.

36:15 a hundred percent. And I think that's what I would tell my younger self is, you know, leverage people more, bring them in earlier. Don't be scared. And I think that also you develop a level of trust, you know, you're the stakeholders at said company will trust you more because you're bringing in an expert on said area. And then you're, you know, developing trust and you're answering specific needs and

36:40 a lot of the software that I've been selling, I'm selling to very technical people and you know, I am a people person. will hands down say I'm not the most technical person I've learned a lot through, you know, the last four or five years, but that's not my forte. Someone else is better at it. I'm going to bring them in. Yeah. Yeah. And look, you will, but you will pick up stuff along the way, which is just, you know, learning the ropes of the job. And obviously the longer you do a job, the more of an expert you becoming it. But

37:08 Yeah, there will always, like I said, there'll always be someone who's a specialist in a certain field. And it doesn't matter if they know stuff you don't because one you're learning and two, you're going to get better results off the back of it. So you did touch on a couple of the reasons, the red flags you mentioned in terms like why you left to talk us through the, uh, point at which you decided to leave. What were the red flags?

37:30 Yeah, think, well, we were unfortunate that Ukrainian war broke out and yeah, there was lots going on in terms of, you know, the world and the economy and we were just going to raise money. So series A and yeah, there was just no funds available. And then there was people on my team and throughout the organization that started to leave and look for other, other jobs. And I was like,

38:00 You know, was pretty clued in. was like, something's going on here. So then started look for other roles within Copenhagen. Yeah. And I'm assuming it was, you at that point, were you looking for a similar role or were you looking for like a step up? Yeah, no, a similar role at that point. I mean, a step up in terms of kind of salary and company. Yeah. So I wanted to go to kind of an established startup, one that had raised series A.

38:29 because anyone that has been in a startup and seed round is a graft. But I learn a load. I think if anyone in their career needs to learn something quickly, go to a startup and many, hats and you'll learn so much in such a short amount of time. The amazing thing as well, when you come out of that, I call it an incubator. Working at a startup is an incubator. Like you level up so quickly. Yes, it's more stressful.

38:57 Yes, you'll probably work more hours. Yes, you will do stuff outside of your job description. But if you can stick it out, even for a year, you will come out a way more rounded professional. And honestly, when you go into that next role, you will look at people around you have not worked in a startup and be like, we spoke about not being the best, but you will you will when you've got two people and someone has worked at startup and someone hasn't more often than not. The person who has worked at the startup will be far more effective at that job.

39:27 the person who hasn't but that's that's not to say that they're happy yeah that's not to say that um that's a blanket rule there are people who have been in a legacy company that's banks financial institutions for eight to ten years they're extremely well they're so well they're extremely advanced specialists but

39:48 It's less about the actual quantifiable stuff and it's more about attitude and openness to learn and do stuff outside of the role and just find solutions to things. So yeah, we've said this in not every episode. I would say at least two thirds of the episode so far in two seasons, go and work in a startup. Like if you're thinking about your next role or you will be thinking about your next role in a year's time or whatever, go and find a startup or a young scale up. either not to

40:18 not to a few million or 10 to 30 million. That's like, it's a really, really nice place to operate in. And you will honestly like just rocket ship your development and your career. So that's a great piece of advice. So what was, what was the next role? I know the answer to this. This is where we first, um, where we first met. So tell us about the next role. Yeah. So I then became account executive at dream data.

40:42 So that was my next role, you know, after being an account executive, but certainly, and spent two years at Dream Data. And it was fantastic as well. And you were mentioning kind of find a scale up that was Dream Data. It's still a scale up, but it was, I learned a lot there as well and met some great people. the previous roles, when you first went into sales, was kind of like, as you said, you fell into sales, then you did a

41:09 two and a half, three years sort of in a sales role. So what was it after gaining that experience that made you pick, choose dream data? Why was that considered next step? Yeah, I think for me it was the people. Um, I had met Laura. I'd been following Laura on LinkedIn for like ages. Most of us have been. I realized she was in Copenhagen and it wasn't until I think she did some post and then I just was she riding a bike by any chance.

41:37 She wasn't at that point. That wasn't her brand at that point, but she was talking about being a woman in sales or something that really resonated with me. I DMed her and never do that. Like I was in a SDR, a role where I only used LinkedIn to DM prospects or people in sales cycles. And I had never actually used LinkedIn to, you know, develop relationships outside my organization.

42:07 And at that point I had been feeling a little bit isolated, I suppose. I was the only woman on my sales team. had thankfully at that point a CRO who was a woman that I could look up to. But in my sales team, it was just me and a lot of lads, which was fine. I got on with them really well. I'm not saying that, but she, there's something she said resonated with me. And then I just DM'd her and I was like, Saw you were in Copenhagen, lets me up for a coffee.

42:33 And then we had, you know, we met up and we had a coffee date and she was great. And then a few months down the line, there was an opening for account executive and I had already kind of been, you know, sussing out the market, messaging a few people using my network as well. And then, yeah, just did some interviews with them and it was really nice. The sales manager at the time, he was a really nice person and.

42:58 It felt right. Also the company was on a good trajectory. They had just raised a series. A things were looking really bright there. So I was like, okay, I've, I'm going to go. It looks great. There was no red flags for me at all. I like is that when you spoke about DMing Laura to meet for a coffee in it, I think a lot of people will be not necessarily scared, but apprehensive, let's say of DMing someone and just saying you're in.

43:23 the same place as me right now. Let's go for a coffee building a relationship potentially with, with a reason, but there weren't any roles there. weren't any roles. that point it was nothing. I literally just wanted to meet up with her. Yeah. So you were building demand, Jen kind of a demand Jen approach. Yeah. You were generating demand for yourself and you know, dream date to always talk about attribution and how long the sales cycle was that you did the demand, Jen work you met with Laura and then a role came up and.

43:53 you know, six to nine months sale cycle, you know, so that worked well. But I think it's nice because I think people shouldn't be afraid of being a real human that reaches out to other humans with just the expectation of why don't we connect? You said something that resonates. I think we can have a good chat or whatever. From a content point of view, it could be I've seen your content. I would love to make some content together or just have a chat or write a report together. all the time.

44:22 Because that's golden, like those conversations that you have with people that you just meet, or maybe you've known each other for a long time on LinkedIn, and you finally meet in person. is such a cool experience. And I think that's where LinkedIn has helped me no end over the last kind of two years, at least. When I had the guts to reach out to people without, you know, an ask. And actually, that's when you develop more meaningful relationships.

44:50 And it's weird because I see that as the norm, but that's a false norm because the people that I'm connected with are the people that do that. But there are so many other people just lurking in the background. Lurking is a negative word. So many other people that just sit in the background that don't behave in that way and don't try to make connections and stuff. But it is definitely a thing that sets people apart. So if you're not, even if you're in an industry that's not necessarily heavy users of LinkedIn or hasn't necessarily adopted LinkedIn.

45:19 doesn't mean you can't build connections just for the sake of building connections. So, yeah, definitely. I must admit, I it's something I need to do a slightly better job in terms of building new connections rather than just watering those I already have or leveraging the connections I already have. I could do a better job of building, increasing the size of that that circle. Did you say you were in that role for two years? Yeah, I was. Again, two years.

45:47 two cycles of the roles, you understood it fully. So another big question. What did you learn in two years at Dream Data? A lot, a lot. So think the biggest thing for me was definitely applying this kind of social selling motion. At the beginning, I was already posting at my last job quite a lot, not as much as I did in Dream Data, but it was, you know, I learned quite a lot of how to do it properly. I had people to aspire to. Just to say,

46:17 For anyone who isn't aware of dream data, I would probably class dream data as one of the early adopters of social selling, but actual you'll be able to confirm this, but a conscious investment into it. As in, don't necessarily mean investment in terms of spending money on kit and stuff, but as a company, you noticed that that it was working and then you as a company, consciously said, yeah, you consciously said,

46:43 you want to do more of this so you had a strategy around it. So dream data are quite famous. I would say anyway, quite famous, well known for that whole social selling methodology. And I think it works really, really well for them. And it's worked well for me also as an individual to develop my personal brand. And that has helped. I don't think I would be here talking to you today if it wasn't also because of my presence on LinkedIn and getting to know people.

47:10 Also DMing, like there is a lot, um, it's a craft behind it as well. And like you said, you do need to have a strategy behind it. You need a company also, if that's the direction that they want to go to invest in it and to push their employees to, to post and give them, give them the freedom. And I think that's what I really respected from the leadership at Dream Data is that I had the freedom of posting what I wanted. There was not like.

47:40 You have to post about this and this and this, but you naturally did anyway. It helped my sales to occasionally talk about dream data, do a product demo. And it's, you know, it was a matter of making it organic. If you're posting all the time about your product, someone's just going to unfollow you. It's going to be really, really annoying. Nobody's going to want to be there. It was a way of me sharing about my life as a, you know, as an international living in a different country.

48:07 Being a mom, having a mom, a mom of two, how hard it is to be in sales as a woman. Like there was lots of things that were interesting to me. One thing that I learned in dream data was definitely this kind of full cycle. So I wasn't, we didn't have an SDR team in dream data. was very much, and thankfully due to amazing marketing, we had a lot of inbound stuff coming in. So there was a lot of demand there, but we still had to do a lot of outbound.

48:34 ourselves. So it was very much time management and like you're mentioning Jamie before, like project management along the way. that was a big kind of shift for me. I was used to, you know, the last year previous to dream data at the last company having an SDR that got my, my meetings. So it was shifting back to almost an SDR mindset again, which was also interesting, which helped with the social selling. Once I had a bit more of, um,

49:02 know, a personal brand out there on LinkedIn, it was much easier to DM people, people that had like my posts, people that had interacted with product demos, could DM them. Um, and it was so nice to see sometimes in bounds coming in and then people saying, Oh, I saw you on LinkedIn. I watched your product demo. This is why I booked a meeting. Um, and that's kind of super rewarding. It was okay. Two things that I want to pick up on. think the first is the

49:29 Full cycle. A reminds me of a, at my previous role, one of the eight E's in America messaged us and they were like, it was when we basically changed the eight E role in that company to full cycle from full cycle. And they replied like, how am I meant? Where am I meant to find the time to book my own demos? And I've always had a bit of this attitude of like, I understand the methodology of SDRs and eight E's, but the best eight E's were those that have been SDRs and understand how to book demos.

49:57 But I always found it wild that someone would say, how do, how do I have the time to book demos and manage pipeline? was, yeah, I was just like, wow. Okay. So that, that, that, I found that interesting full cycle. I think it's better. It's a more, a more well, well rounded professional who understands the full cycle and the value of, the, the, uh, challenge of booking a demo. And I think when you.

50:21 When you can't when you're involved in the booking of it or sourcing of it, you better understand the deal anyway or the opportunity. The second one is, I guess, intrigue from my side of things. How successful it was the social selling or is was the social selling for dream data that you don't have to give figures, but just try and explain what it drove in terms of what it yielded, let's say in terms of inbound, because the whole point is you social selling is like

50:51 Again, it's that kind of demand gen approach of building trust rapport, building an audience. So when they are ready to buy and they're considering a solution, they know who you are and they think I might as well reach out and see, see what they've got to offer. So how did it do? I mean, it did well. That's why they continue doing it. So a lot of our pipeline was actually sourced by LinkedIn.

51:15 But that was part of a parcel. with LinkedIn, we were doing a lot of ads as well, right? And social selling. So I think you have to see it as part of a well-oiled machine. It's definitely not something that you can stand alone and do. It was part of you know, a whole...

51:35 marketing, how would I say cycle. So we did spend a lot on ads and then we also had retargeting and there was lots, lots going on. There was definitely like a big brain behind the marketing efforts there. In terms of how much did we yield in pipeline? I do have the figure somewhere, but I don't remember off the top of my head, but it was quite a substantial amount. Even maybe like on a monthly or quarterly or even weekly, like how many inbounds would you get from social selling?

52:04 Yeah, I mean, I can just use kind of like this. I would say probably one or two out of 10. Literally when I say like, you know, where did you hear about us? It was from LinkedIn from someone's post, which is quite high. I mean, what? 10 to 20 % attributed to. Yeah. I mean, I think we had in my previous role, we had the, did you hear about this field? And I think about 30 % said LinkedIn, whether that's LinkedIn ads or.

52:33 thought leadership ads or actual organic social selling. But now you make a very, good point that social selling isn't a singular sole strategy marketing strategy. Social selling would form part of the awareness and nurturing stage. So top of funnel and middle of funnel. Yeah. Okay. Bottom of funnel as well in terms of helping build trust, which should improve close one rates awareness. They come across your content nurturing.

53:02 You build trust and authority and you build a relationship. So it's part of a wider strategy, which I think is a key point. So I'm glad you touched on that. Okay, then. So, I mean, like you said, you've only ever spoken really, really highly of Dream Data. I've had Laura on. She was on season one of Revenue Career Ladder. She's great. I think we met at a trade show that we went on a run in London, which just goes to show like the

53:31 outcome or benefits of building connections and going to these events and things. Why did you then decide to move on after two years of what sounds like really, really good things? Yeah. So in kind of the mix of being an AE, I founded my own community called Saleswomen Unite. So that's been running for around a year. And then I also got involved with a bigger movement called Women of SAS, which are headquarters in Berlin.

54:00 And they wanted to open a Copenhagen chapter. And I opened that with a good friend of mine, Jasmine. And I don't know, I was getting more excited about community building. I would wake up when I had some meetups, I would wake up and be super excited about that. And I was like, I need to do this full time. Like, this is so cool. Like, yeah.

54:24 I felt like that was my calling, so to speak, not that sales wasn't, but like, you know, like I mentioned, I fell into sales. I did it. I learned the craft. Like I felt like I was good at it, was successful. I just felt like after two years at Dream Data, it was great, but I didn't feel like there was necessarily this step or career path for me that I wanted in terms of community building. And then Daniel.

54:54 And, and Thomas at Sassius reached out like just at the right time, basically when I was kind of having these thoughts and offered me a job there. So that's kind of my transition into community. No, I think, um, weirdly the episode we did with Ben about the ice skater, professional ice skating, um, that was also sales that then went more marketing. And I would say community, well, it does, it does apply to the

55:23 many, many different roles more. So it leans more towards marketing. So it's interesting. think, yeah, I think it's a good point to touch on the fact that just because you are in a career and you've done it for four or five years, it doesn't mean that you can't go, you know what? It's great. I'm doing all right, but doing well at something isn't everything. Yeah. I picked this up on the last episode. So I'm going to Google it just to make sure I get it right. But it's the Japanese.

55:50 methodology of Ikigai, Ikigai. So Ikigai, so it's to do, they call it like their reason for being, but it's basically these four key principles. So imagine four circles in a Venn diagram and the point at which they all meet in the middle is Ikigai, which is the balance of it. And I think it really, really applies really well to work. So the four principles are do what you love. Do what you're good at.

56:20 Do what the world needs and do what you can be paid for. So if you balance those four things out, the reason I bring it up is because you had something that you were good at. You were doing something that this applied to the professional world that was needed, as in like a function that's needed and the product that was needed. You were getting paid for it, but it didn't necessarily fulfill the doing something you love. Yeah. So I think, yeah, the reason I bring that up, I'm probably going to bring it up in numerous episodes moving forward. Cause I think it's a really, really nice way of a

56:50 for people to think about like in their current job. Could they answer yes to all those four things? And if you can't, maybe it is time to move, which takes us on nicely to your next role, which as you said was more of a you wanted to pursue something that was more you have more passion for. So talk to us about community. What does community management mean? Yeah. So after being an AE, then I moved to Sassiest as head of community management. So Sassiest for those that

57:19 don't know what it is, it's a B2B SaaS community and we do a lot of different things. So first off, we have our executive networks and that's in all different kind of roles that we do. So sales, marketing, CS, finance, product, et cetera. Then we also have big events. So we have events in Malmo, in Amsterdam and in London. And that's a lot to juggle. We're a small team, so we're four.

57:46 full time at Sassiest. And I suppose I was wanting more of a multifaceted role. And that's what kind of drew me in was I knew I'm going to be working with marketing. I'm going to be working with the executive networks. I directly with the community. I also wanted to, I love events. I'm one of those weird people, weird extroverted people that loves events, but I wanted to understand how to, how to manage events. Um, you know,

58:15 what kind of cogs needed to be turned to make an event successful. And I also felt like with Sassiest, I could give a lot and, you know, they could gain a lot from me being there as well. In terms of my role, like I mentioned, I'm doing a lot of things. So it's exciting at the moment. And yeah, it's where I feel like I belong, which is quite like settling on the soul, which is nice.

58:45 Similar question that I asked on the ballet. So in terms of someone who doesn't know what community, some of the management would look after, like what would you say some of the, uh, core deliverables in your role? Yeah. So my core deliverables at the moment, and this is where it's like kind of sales kind of marketing and making sure like, so mine is growing the executive networks and also our CEO networks. And then also I'm, um, trying to get

59:14 event partners in to kind of sponsor our events, our big flagship events as well. And then on top of that, making sure to engage with the community, do things that they see value from as well. that's kind of, suppose, my deliverables is growing the network. So whether that's by, you know, 2X or whatever in a year. But that's where I'm kind of

59:43 putting my efforts at the moment is definitely growing the exec network, making sure that those are our members are happy and getting value from it. And then also getting event partners in for the big events. Now, you've only been there a few months, is that right? Yeah, I only started two months ago. what? Okay. Yeah. I mean, this question isn't going to be as big as it would be for the previous roles we've done. But what have you learned in two months? Actually a lot. I've learned that

01:00:14 A small team can do big things. suppose I, not that I laid back in dream data at all, but it was definitely kind of scale up where people had their roles. I feel like I can make more of an impact at Sassius, which is nice. And I'm doing a lot more like for instance, creating content in terms of articles, blogs, those kinds of things, which I suppose feeds into my creativity, which, is nice. But on the topic of content, I've got to ask what camera do you have? Webcam. Yeah. Camera.

01:00:43 You know I've been asked that so many times. You know, working in content and brand, I can respect the kit. what is it? It's the Sony vlogging camera. Right, OK. I it's V10. I can't remember. I can send you the link after. Yeah, we'll pick that up after because no one listening has. They might do. I don't know. OK, then. So I don't need to ask you why you've left because you haven't left yet. So we will jump into the round up quickfire questions.

01:01:12 So the first question is what would be your top three tips for progressing in your career, climbing the ladder, whatever you want to call it. Yeah, I think for me is what I've learned anyway, and in the last five years and you know, also being a ballet dancer, trust yourself, believe in yourself, because you only have yourself basically, you have your team and things around you but

01:01:38 you know, make sure that you take accountability, but you also trust what you're doing. I think that's a big thing. Second point, can't remember off the of my head, but I will, trying to think. Do you want me to, I've got enough on my screen. So, so well, it's all right, I've mentioned this in previous episodes, but we send a form for the guests to fill in. I've got stuff to work from. So MC has done this, three very good ones. So the first one, you nailed, you got the first one.

01:02:07 Second one was know what you want to take us to what you want. Know what you want. Trust your guts. think a lot of us go on data, how we're doing, how much money we're earning. That's fine. But if in your gut, you don't feel like you fit or you feel like you could do something else, just, you know, roll with it as well. think that's, uh, that's a learning that I've had. I've stayed in roles that maybe I shouldn't have stayed in for too long. So yeah.

01:02:37 I think trust your gut. had a similar on the know what you want thing as well. had similar advice on a previous episode, but it was more don't be afraid to tell your boss what role you want. Like don't be afraid to tell your boss what you want their job in five years. Like don't be afraid of doing that because I, for one, absolutely love when someone in my team says I want to be in this role until half months time. Cause I'm like, great. Well, here's what you're not doing. Well, here's what you're doing. Great.

01:03:04 and like why you would deserve the role and here's the stuff that you need to improve on. Makes it way easier to have someone who actively wants to pursue either a different role or progression in the role they're already in is amazing. So knowing what you want and where you want to get to, whether it's one of those 12 month goals, three year goals, five year goals, definitely, definitely great piece of advice. And then your third one was don't be afraid to ask. Yeah, yeah, I think this I learned too late.

01:03:32 as well. And I think it kind of, you know, connects with the other two. You will not ask for something you want unless you trust yourself, you trust you're good at what you're doing, because you are good at what you're doing. I think at least I don't want to generalize here, but I feel like as a woman sometimes, we're very self critical, and we have to tick off the boxes 100%. Otherwise, we won't ask for anything. I think there's actually a TED talk about it that you know, women won't apply for a job unless they kind of

01:04:00 know, fulfill all of the criteria 100 % when men, they may be feel like 60 % and they'll apply for that job anyway. I think it's the same, like I feel the same. So my learnings and what I want to apply moving forward is to ask as well. And in one of our community events for Sales Women Unite, we had a CEO there. And she actually said and gave this advice. She was like, I've never gotten a role that I haven't asked for.

01:04:29 So she's always asked for the roles that she's got and she's been given them eventually. Like you said, communicate why you want it. It might be six, 12 months down the line, but at least you've communicated why you want it and why you feel like you'd be good at that role and what it would bring the company as well. Look, I think companies are busy, managers are busy, HR departments are busy. They're not going to willingly just give you a promotion.

01:04:56 unless they've got a process that reminds them to check your performance and you know, very rare. So you have to go to your manager and say, I am deserving of this promotion or I would like this role. What do I need to do? The worst thing that's going to happen is that person turns around said no, because, and then you know exactly what you need to do in order to get that role. there's no, there's no way there's no loss unless, unless you're

01:05:23 naive or too arrogant or not self aware enough to go fine if I if I'm not ready for the role just leave and get it somewhere else which tends not to work very well when you move just to get the promotion because you weren't ready for the promotion in the role you're in very rarely works I know there are there's a lot of sometimes companies are not willing to invest in you therefore you move because you are deserved of it so great piece of great piece of advice definitely ask be honest which ties in like you said perfectly to know what you want

01:05:52 So you know what you're asking for and know what you're worth. any regrets, career regrets to date? Oh, I hate the word regret. I think everything in life is learning. I think I'm one of these overthinkers as well. So if I ever feel like I regret doing something, I end up going into a spiral. So I've actually tried to coach myself into not regretting anything. Things happen for a reason.

01:06:22 And there always going to be a learning behind it. It could be a mistake, but that's OK. You're going to learn from it. You're going to get stronger from it. I sound a bit preachy here. Like, I don't believe there should be any regrets in your life. I think we're fortunate that we've gone through 10 to 15 years of life in a professional career. So we've learned in hindsight and retrospect that even in the moment when you're 22 and something fucks up, you did something wrong.

01:06:51 what happened in the year or two after it typically is good because you learn from it. don't do it again. You don't waste money on something and you don't go for the job just because it's a better salary. But we can say that because we've been through the 10 to 15 years. So to someone who is fresh out of school, it might sound preachy, but I'll tell you what, for anyone listening who's 21, when you're 32, 33, 34, 35, like mid-30s, think back.

01:07:19 to all the mistakes and I guarantee your look at them as you'll probably your mindset will be, you know what I needed to make that mistake to get to where I am today. So it's just that change is that stoic methodology of reframing. I think that's what the stoics call it. Reframing the thing that went bad, wrong in the moment. Yes, you took time to process it and you've lived on and now you're like, okay, I fucked up at that job, but I didn't make that mistake again. Yeah.

01:07:47 And probably that regret is miniscule 10 to 15 years down the line as well. Like, and you wonder, why did I stress about that for three months? Like, why did that take up so much of my headspace when, you know, you could probably just say, okay, I'm learning from this. Let's move on. Let it be and we will. Yeah. You know, what will be will be. It is what it is, whatever cliche phrase you want to use. But I think that's, that's what wisdom is.

01:08:16 So when people say, he's a wise old man, the only reason it's typically old men or women are called wise is because they've had 80 years of making mistakes and learning from it or finding success and learning from it. That's all wisdom is. Wisdom is just time and the time time spent consistency in time spent, you know, compounding returns in investment. You've invested for 30 years. Look, you've paid loads of money. It's the same thing.

01:08:45 So we're more wise than we were at 21 and we'll be more wise in another 10 years, but we'll be more wise about different things. So for you, I don't have kids yet. So I'll be more wise about kids and how to work with kids and all that sort of stuff. So you need to go work in a nursery. No kidding. Christ. No, I can't think of anything worse. I don't mind kids that I'm related to, but any other kids I'm like, No, I don't. I don't mind kids. But, but yeah, wisdom is just time.

01:09:11 So it will come with time. I success also, if you look at the most successful people, usually they've made a lot of mistakes or they've learned a lot through failure and then they are successful at some point. also what is success? Success can mean multiple things for different people. Yeah, it's subjective, isn't it? Yeah. Some people's success is living off grid with no money. For some people's success is being the richest person on the planet.

01:09:39 So I think the I spoke about this in the last episode, probably more than the last episode is Stephen Bartlett and his 33 laws of business and life talks about failing often, but making sure you fail fast. So there's nothing wrong with failure. You learn a lot from it, but don't continue to fail in the same way over and over and over again, expecting different results. So fail often. It wasn't that the Einstein's theory. It could be. just I'm quoting it from the book that I read it from. So

01:10:08 Doesn't matter if you fail, but don't go back the next day and do exactly the same thing and fail again. Move on, do something else, try something new, because if it failed, it's probably going to fail again. What's next for you then? I know you've just, you've only just got into this role. So the what next is, you know, you're happy in this role and long may that continue. But what's next in terms of that thing we spoke about understanding where you want to go or knowing what you want, what would be next for you?

01:10:36 Yeah, I think it's very short sighted at the moment because I'm only two months into my role. So right now it's very much being successful in what I'm doing, growing the network, making sure that, you know, this is a community that everyone wants to join and be part of. But I think for me, we're a small team. So I would like eventually to the team at Sassiest. I think, you know, we have potential there to do it. And I would like to.

01:11:03 to be part of that, if not kind of leading some people, onboarding people could be kind of a cool step in the progression there. Yeah, I can definitely attest, is that the word? I can definitely attest to that. Yeah, onboarding and bringing people into the business, hiring, amazing. It's like such a, when I did it for the first time, it was such a rewarding process. And then to see that person succeed is, yeah, it's amazing. So that's definitely something to...

01:11:32 look forward to. I actually had someone start a new website manager start yesterday. Very much going through that. That's what I think is my second higher, third higher, second or third higher since I started. So it's always nice when new people, new blood, new fresh ideas come into the team. What would be your end goal then? I call it like, what's the top of the mountain for you?

01:11:56 That's a tricky one. I'm very much one of these people that like live in the moment. I think this was maybe just from my upbringing and my background as a dancer was very much like live, live each day like it's your last kind of thing. It sounds pretty morbid, that's no, we talk about, I'm a huge fan of momentum. Maury, the stoic, you know, remember you will die live in the moment. Yeah.

01:12:18 Um, I suppose for me, I love Copenhagen. I love being in Denmark, but I am a country bumpkin. I grew up in a small village, you know, just close to, I don't know if you know, Formula One, Silverstone track. There's a few villages around there. I come from one of those. Um, it's like idyllic place. I won't move back to the UK just because that's, you know, not doing so well at the moment compared to Scandinavia. It's, yeah, it's expensive. What can I say?

01:12:47 I don't know, there's part of me that's like, want to move into back into the countryside. I can imagine like a farmhouse, my family all around. I want to just retire very nice and comfortably. Live the slow life. think being in SaaS, being in sales, now being in community, it's very high paced. You mentioned F1 there. So Christian Horner, the team principal at Red Bull.

01:13:13 This his job and his personal life is a really, really good example of what you're talking about here. So high stress environment, SAS, very fast paced. have to be on your feet on your toes all the time, constantly evolving a very volatile industry as well. Let's be honest. Same as Formula One. He's then got his Oxford estate, Oxfordshire Estate, where he's got an old series one land rover, dogs, kids, family. And it's like that. Yeah.

01:13:39 That's that's yeah, I can, I can relate to that. So I'm actually, I'm house hunting at the minute and I'm planning on moving back to where I grew up, which was the Cotswolds. Um, and I, don't live. Yeah. I know. I don't live in a huge city. I live in Cardiff, which is about half a million, maybe a little bit more now. It's not a massive city, but I'm just done with the city, the city lifestyle. I want, when I log off, I want to open my front door and there'd be a walk.

01:14:02 I'm getting a dog as well and I'm basically I'm chasing that slow lifestyle now so I can really, really relate to what you're saying. Yeah, it would just be nice to retire in a nice village somewhere, whether that's in Denmark or somewhere else in Scandinavia. I'm fine with that. But yeah, it's definitely fast paced and Copenhagen, I think it has a good balance. Like it's not as big as London.

01:14:30 Um, I didn't even know if it's as big as Cardiff to be honest, but it's, know, um, but it's a good balance for me at the moment. But I think when I get a bit older, it would be nice to retire to a nice, nice little village, have a cottage, have some animals. Have a horse. I don't know. could be a couple of chickens, couple of ducks. I get it. I I completely get it. Well, that has been a

01:14:57 Brilliant conversation. hope those that are watching or listening have enjoyed and learned something will take something forward from it. I think there's been a lot of really, really good advice and I always like the episodes where I find it easy to relate to the topic of conversation. Typically, they're the episodes that I think there's more value in because we're able to portray it in a way that is more relatable and things. So I think that's been really, really good. So thank you for joining me. Hopefully it wasn't too painful. Thanks for having me.

01:15:27 I think this is episode nine of season two, which obviously we haven't finished recording. It hasn't launched yet, but I believe this will be episode nine. So for those listening or watching, we will see you in the next episode, which will be the final of the series. If you haven't followed subscribed, please click below, follow, subscribe on YouTube or Spotify and we will catch you in the next episode.