From Retail Assistant to Outbound Leader with Elric Legloire

00:04 Welcome to another episode of the revenue career ladder where we dive deep into the career journeys of revenue focused professionals to give you real insights, actionable tips, and maybe evil a little reassurance that the journey is yours to define in this episode. I'm joined by Elric, Liguard, hopefully, hopefully I haven't butchered the pronunciation. He's shaking his head and we're to be chatting about his journey from retail assistant stock clerk to outbound leader. So

00:33 Without further ado, how are you Alrick? I'm doing fine. And what about you? How are you doing today? I'm good. I'm good. I think you're only the second person to actually ask me that question in return. So it's very much appreciated. I am good. I'm off the back of a skiing holiday last week. So my brain is still not quite computing and the keyboard and mouse still feels a little bit weird to touch. But apart from that, recording should be absolutely fine because I don't have to do any keyboard or mouse.

01:01 Did how close was the, I didn't put you the name, did I? It wasn't too bad. No, there was, was, right. I think you, you practice. that sounds good. Yeah. It was only, was only 20 minutes in the mirror before this recording. So, right. So we, we, we start these, start these episodes with your first ever job, which we've already touched on was stock clerk or retail assistant. So tell us more about your first, your literal first ever job.

01:29 Yeah, I was 17. I was looking for a job for the summer. yeah, that's the first job I got. So it was interesting. I learned a lot, I would say, because at this time, I didn't know what I wanted to study, but also do as my job later. So it was great, I think. Great first experience.

01:59 When you say you still didn't sort of have it figured out in the UK 17, we'd either still be at school finishing A levels or we would have left school. So what were you doing at 17 years old with respect to education? Yeah, I was in high school, still in high school last year of high school. So yeah, I was getting my, I don't know what's the equivalent in English, but the my last degree for the degree of high school in France and

02:29 I was, I don't remember exactly if I was already applying for the uni after that. yeah, I was still lost. So, but after this year was, yeah, I got to uni to study marketing. So, is that same sort of age as it in the UK? So I think it's 18 to 21 is the typical age for university. Yep. Yep. That's similar. Yep.

02:57 Okay. First ever job done. what was your, once you had done, I've got to hear that you did a master's degree as well. Right. So you did three years degree and then it was the master's one year or longer. So it was a two year degree first of marketing. And then I went to business school to, yeah. And it was three years to get my master's degree. Okay. So roughly 23 coming out of university.

03:25 Not really because I did a gap year in 2013. I went to Mexico and Ireland after that. Okay. so early, early 20s still, what was your first job off the back of the, off the back of completing the degree? I I'm assuming figuring out that you wanted to work in either marketing or sales.

03:55 Yeah. it was marketing. I was a marketing coordinator for a B2B service company in Mexico City. So that was my first job actually. And the goal basically was getting prospects for the, for getting leads for the system. And before we go on to the, your first sort of highlight role, which we'll dive a little bit deeper into, explain Mexico. How did you end up in Mexico?

04:25 Well, if you go back to the gap here, actually, when I had an internship here in Mexico City and I met at that time, that was my girlfriend, but now she's my wife. But basically, met my wife in 2013 in Mexico City. And in 2016, when I got this job, the marketing coordinator role, I came back to Mexico to be with her. And now we are married.

04:55 Okay, so interesting. how did you, I guess, how did you choose Mexico as a place for a gap year? It was a funny story because I was not focused on getting my internship in Mexico. So I was, I wanted to get an internship in the US. And I found like, I don't know why specifically Miami, but I was focused on Miami and Florida in general. And I found like,

05:23 database of French companies in Miami. And so I was contacting, cold emailing the whole list asking if they were looking for interns. And one guy replied, he said, yes, but the problem with the US is getting the visa just for even though for an internship, not like they give you the visa super easily. So he said, if you want, can offer you

05:49 to go to Mexico City to do the same internship from Mexico City. And so I said, yeah, why not? And I was an internship for electronic music radio. So it was an interesting internship. yeah, had a lot of fun with this internship. Yeah, interesting. I was trying to piece together how a Frenchman ended up in Mexico. Yeah, was luck, would say, luck.

06:18 Whatever you call it, but it was a...

06:22 I was not planning to go to Mexico. That's the short answer. And the silver lining is you met your now wife whilst you're on your gap year in Mexico, which is a lovely story. Okay, let's jump into the first highlight role. first highlight role, 2018 to 2019 BDR at Globalization Partners. Talk to me about why you took that job. Yeah, so actually, if we go back to the other world,

06:51 marketing coordinator role. I'm just giving context why I took this role, because why marketing to be the role. Basically, like I mentioned, they hired me to get leads for the sales team. And you can get leads from marketing or from prospecting. I studied marketing at school, at business school, uni, but the problem is they give you this

07:23 marketing projects and they say, yeah, you have 1 million euros, 1 million pounds, 1 million dollars to run this campaign. But I joined an SMB company and they told me, no, we don't have any budget. you have what they show you at school and then you have like the reality of working for an SMB. And I started to go online, look for, I don't know, marketing strategies, a lot of

07:50 I started to study just basically to find new marketing strategies with no budget basically. And at some point I found a book, Predictable Revenue written by Aaron Ross, the first SaaS leader at Salesforce. And I said, yeah, maybe I could try that because you don't need that budget. You just need to have like a tool to find emails. You need LinkedIn to find people who is the CEO,

08:20 the right person to go after. So I just basically apply the book to this company. And I started to get like 15 meetings a month just by basically copy pasting the strategy of Aaron Ross to this company, translating the strategy into Spanish because I was working on the Mexican market. And I said, hmm, interesting, because I really thought that sales was not for me until I started to focus.

08:49 to apply this there and I started to get some success. at some point, this company, well, for me, was not doing marketing anymore. It was more like a sales role. And I asked for getting commissions on the deals I was sourcing. And they say no. And so I said, well, you know what? I know sales, it's a job, it's more focused on efforts and you can get.

09:18 a better salary, would say, versus marketing. So I decided to apply to other worlds and that's how I ended up at Glowization Partners. Interesting. Was it 50 you were saying, not 15?

09:33 15. Yeah, sorry. Not 50. Yeah. 15 is it 15 is still good, but 50 I was like, okay, 50 took me took me back a little bit. Okay, so you you were in that marketing role, but you kind of doing more sales, you asked for commission, which was it's only fair, the bulk of sales, the bulk of sales jobs are based heavily on commission. And if you're not getting the commission, then you know, why are you going through the stress?

10:00 of sales. So you looked for a new role and it was BDR at Globalization Partners. So in terms of the behind choosing that particular role, other than it being able to provide you with the commission clearly and a dedicated sales role, was there anything else that attracted you to that particular company in that particular role?

10:26 So they were building the BDR jam, that's one reason. And I got someone who was helping me to get into Texas because at this time I didn't know what was Texas, I didn't know anything about BDR or SDR roles in general. So yes, I learned about this reading the book, but basically someone was coaching me from the desk actually because they were...

10:54 Zendesk also was looking to build a team in Mexico. I was coached by someone and he basically helped me through the process and coached me on the things to say, to add on your resume and stuff like that. So globalization butters, why this company? They were opening an office. It was remote at this time, but they were building the BDR function at the company to serve their services in the US.

11:22 And just before I forget to ask the question, what was the book called by Aaron Rodgers? Aaron Rodgers, the book was Predictable Revenue. Predictable Revenue. Because I think for anyone listening or watching, that could be a worthwhile read, even though it was probably released back when sales was in more of a golden era. would you say it's lost a bit of its efficacy with time? I think so, yeah. I think it's a good book to read if you're

11:52 new to TechSales, but I wouldn't recommend for today's advanced strategies. It's great to understand TechSales, the SDR function, AECS, more. The account management function, for example. But the strategies from this book now today, they are not the one I'm using, for example, with customers or people who are talking with me on my podcast.

12:20 Now you were there around a year. So what did you learn given that this was your first, I guess, dedicated sales role? What did you learn in that year? So this year was, if we go back to the previous hall, was doing marketing, but here it was really sales oriented. So it was really interesting because I was trying a lot of scripts, emails, contacting people on LinkedIn. So it was really interesting to learn more.

12:51 being 100 % focused on the sales role. So it was a lot of repetition, execution, I would say. And interesting in a sense that I started to have conversation with top companies in the US, in the SaaS industry, for example. it was just learning the BDR with an official data of BDR.

13:17 And what sort of age were you then just to clarify sort of 23 ish? No, no, no, I was, it was 2018 19. So I was 28 29 something. Okay. Yeah, got into Texas pretty late. would say if you compare. but you know, I think that's probably there's good and bad. But I think the the advantages would be that you had a lot more wisdom, should I say in terms of life?

13:44 uh, wisdom later in your twenties. And when you're in your early twenties, I think nowadays you can have this, uh, misconception that you're going to walk into sales and, and 250 K in your first year. I think later in your twenties and perhaps your early thirties, there's a more realistic, uh, appreciation of, know, what you can achieve. So, okay. So you were there a year, which as we all know, is a relatively short stint. Um, generally it's a relatively short stint in terms of sales. can take six to nine months to ramp up and then

14:14 That's when you start sort of hitting the ground running. what was your reason for leaving after a year?

14:21 Actually, I forgot to ask you, because do you want the real answer or do you want the... Yeah, yeah, give me the honest... You don't have to name names, but give me the honest answer. no, I'm just saying it was a toxic company. So yeah, that's one of the main reasons I left the company. Yeah. So... That's one of the whole points of this series is that we... I think people will relate to...

14:48 reasons behind leaving. I, one, know that the first company that I worked for out of university, I was there three and a half years. One of the main reasons I left was because of an extremely toxic culture. And many others that were there at the time will speak to that. And a good friend of mine at the time left and has gone on to be very, very successful in a business that addresses the symptoms caused by toxic workplaces, which is very, very interesting.

15:15 Um, so yeah, I'm, I'm keen to know. when you say toxic, um, company or toxic management, what sort of toxicity are we talking about? Um, we are talking about, uh, having a manager who are starting to fire me. Uh, still don't know why, but actually if I'm not thinking about this war anymore, so, but, uh, yeah, three times the HR person talked to me saying, Hey, your manager is trying to fire you and.

15:45 is looking for something to fire. And I had some success. So I was not in a position of getting fired because of performance. No, I was at more than 100 % of my core. So basically, couldn't find something to fire me.

16:07 And this person was like, when I was talking to him, he was like nice, but then behind my back, was always trying to fight, he was talking shit about me. was trying to... So I said, you know what? I don't think it's healthy to have this relationship with someone like this, because also I was talking to leadership, trying to focus on...

16:35 Hey, here's the situation, what we can do with that. And basically they were behind his back and not my back. I say, know what, I'm going to, yeah, to leave. Because yeah, it's, I don't think it's an unfair environment to be into. So that was the main reason. I completely agree. And I think that takes me back to my point about

17:00 being in your late 20s was probably advantageous in that specific example because you knew that that isn't normal, that it shouldn't be normal. Whereas if you're 21 coming fresh out of university and it's your first job, you might actually start to think maybe this is what the real world is like and maybe this is completely normal. Exactly. No, that's a good point because yeah, I'm always talking about that with my wife specifically. When you have some experience and it's not your first role and you say,

17:27 If you are working for a toxic company, but you don't know that. you are thinking it's normal and like exactly that. And because of this job, actually, I got like some health issues. so because of that, also, that's one of the other reasons I took the decision to quit this company, because having this relationship with this boss, plus starting to get some health issues, being stressed about the situation, trying to fix something that was impossible to fix. yeah.

17:57 That was it. Yeah, I think hopefully those listening or watching will take if anyone's going through that or has been through that I think it would be a very relatable situation and it's one of those there are plenty of like cliche sayings, but it's it's not quitting By any means just walking away. It's making the brave decision to say, know what? I'm better than this. I don't need this. So fair play to you Okay, then so you you did that for a year and then you moved

18:25 into a new company called Torque Push in 2019. am I right in saying you started out as BDR there? Yes. I started as a BDR because I left and I had the opportunity to join the team. The team at that time was not a new function. They had like four BDRs in Mexico, Costa Rica, and the Philippines. And so I joined the team. They were already

18:54 Uh, had some success with album. So that's, joined them because it was an interesting product. They are selling, but they are still selling a CRM for recruitment. And it was an interesting product, I would say. And they were trying to develop the Mexican market. Interesting. I, the company that I worked at, uh, previously made,

19:19 I guess it was a business development tool, but for the recruiting market. So I know the recruitment market fairly well, how volatile and challenging it can be. Um, yeah, especially in, um, down markets. Um, so you, we, we kind of know the reasons why you set the job. So you wanted to leave the previous role. This was, um, same sort of level. The company looked like it was expanding in the right areas where you were faced. Um, and the, tool was fairly interesting. So moving across.

19:49 to that role, what did you learn in that period? Okay, so for this one specifically, was like my marketing coordinator role, it was focused on enterprise companies in Mexico. So when I learned a lot about ICPs or so, because yes, we were selling a recruitment tool, but the reality was not every company is a good fit.

20:18 So it was basically nailing down the ACP. And that was call centers, BPO companies, supermarkets, lot of companies basically with a high turnover with their team. so the main focus was not just, okay, do they have 1000 employees? No, the main goal was to understand how many people do they hire each year? And that was super interesting to focus on that because

20:49 It's starting to learn why hardbound success starts with crafting the right ICP. And that was, I would say, the first lesson of this world. And this world, we were going a lot to the office of Dostos products. So it was also fun versus doing this remote. So that was something else.

21:18 And am I right in saying that you moved during your period there, you moved up to BDR manager, right? Yes. Yeah. And I was, this one, was like a bit surprised because when I joined, they were running the sales team by pod, not by pod, but by country. And so we had like sales teams, the sales team in Mexico, the sales team in Costa Rica, the sales team in the Philippines, and basically no global team. And I said,

21:46 I don't think at some point they were hired BDR manager because, well, it's about per country. And the VP of sales made the decision to have a global sales team and then a global BDR team. And when they made this decision, basically, I was the first one they asked to, if I wanted to take the role. And why me specifically? Because I think I was the one, the most proactive in terms of...

22:15 the strategy about Artbound, but also if anyone had questions about Artbound and what was working, I was the one jumping on calls with other BDRs, helping them saying, hey, on this call, you should have said this. So basically, I was already doing the role before getting the title. And yeah, when they asked me to take the role, I said, yeah, let's do it.

22:43 So you were about how long into the role was it? months. Four months. So you were a year and four months into your sales career. Uh, roughly a year and a half before you were offered BDR manager, which is a fairly, you know, it's a pretty big jump up for someone who's only been in sales a year and a half. what was, what was different about being a BDR versus BDR manager that you had to adapt to? Wow.

23:11 A lot because for me, was the first time I was a manager. And I think I was talking about that on another podcast a few weeks ago. And for me, being a manager and being inside is completely different. It's a new role. Obviously, need to be, think you, maybe you don't need to be the expert of the role, but you still need to understand the role to be a good leader, I would say. But being a manager and this work, actually, I don't think I was doing a good job, but yeah.

23:41 self-reflecting on that. For me, it was a completely new role. And if you talk to people who get through their new, for the first time manager role, most of the time it's, okay, you are the top performer, you're doing this, okay, go figure it out. And that's it. And you need to figure out how to run one-to-one meetings with your team, how to weekly calls with your team, training, coaching.

24:11 hiring and a lot of things. so it was, I'm still figuring out how bond, but now I need to also figure out being a manager. I would say it was challenging because there was a lot. because it was a small company, you maybe don't have the enablement function to support you to be successful. So, but it's not an excuse to say because of that, I didn't learn. So yeah.

24:40 I was booking calls with other BDR leaders. bought like, I don't know, five, six books on leadership, hiring, sales leadership to also figure out. And yeah, it was a lot of learnings, would say, moving to leadership at this company. Yeah, I think those who haven't been in management or leadership positions before probably

25:09 won't appreciate the level of being a friend, being a counselor, being a mentor, being inspirational, all these things that aren't really on paper on the job description, but you have to handle when you take on direct reports. So as I said, I can imagine only being a year and half into your career and then taking that on must have been a challenge. Okay, then, so I can see you were there again, roughly a year. So just...

25:39 judging by the years, 2020 was something big happened in 2020. what is that the reason why you left? that the reason? Yes. So that's exactly it because this company was not VC back funded. So it was a bootstrap company. And basically we started to lose some customers and for bootstrap company starting to be...

26:06 losing money because some customers are leaving. for us as company, the main cost of a company is headcount. I didn't know if they were going to let go some people. But the day I said I was quitting and I was moving to my next role, they let go six people. So I knew I made the right decision because of that. Because obviously,

26:35 Being in sales, I don't think it's only about you and your talent or your hard work. It's also being in the right environment. I think for some companies, was a tough year. But for other companies, like the next one I joined, it was a great year. And sales, having success in sales, I don't think it's just you and your talent or your hard work. It's also being at the right time and the right company.

27:04 I'm very, very interested to talk about your next tie light role because I've been a user of this tool. I've been following them for good number of years. I know a few people there who are all great. think the whole team seemed very, very, very cool. So we're going to be talking about Chilly Piper. And I think most people listening or watching will recognize the name. If you don't, where have you been the last few years? So you

27:27 You joined Chili Piper in 2020 as an SDR. the year of, what was it, March 2020 that COVID hit, you touched on the fact that was a very, very good time. in August 2020 because I think the COVID, I would say, not crisis, but crisis. So what was interesting is Chili Piper, are selling mainly to B2B companies and B2B companies, were

27:55 really thriving in this year, 2020. At TalkPush, we were selling many B2C companies, and 2020 was a tough year for B2C companies. So it took maybe three, four months to start having customer churning because they were in contract. So when the renewal time was coming, yeah, they churned. So anyway, was August, not March 2020.

28:22 OK, so you joined Chili Piper late 2020, or the latter half of 2020, which was the first few months of COVID, which we know lasted what felt like a lifetime. But talk to us about how you came across Chili Piper, how that came about. So at that time, also because we forgot to mention that at the same time,

28:47 having a job, I had also a podcast and I met, I was hosting a podcast in French at the time and I met a lot of great people, but one person specifically really helped me and coached me around thinking about having a list of companies you want to work at. And I started to have a list of remote companies because I was working from Mexico City, I'm still in Mexico City, but...

29:13 I was working from Mexico City and so I made a list of remote companies. So obviously during COVID, a lot of companies were remote and cheap upper ones on the list. They started to, I think it was pre-Series A, they started to hire more SDRs. So at that time, I think they had like three or four SDRs when I joined and applied and I got the role.

29:42 And also something you, I don't know if you are going to ask, but I moved from leadership to an SDR. So some people can say why, but for me, it was more like joining the right company, right stage, right products. And I didn't care about getting back to an SDR. No, I, you know, that's a, I'm glad you called up on, I wasn't going to call you out on it, but I'm glad you brought it up. I think it's something.

30:11 It's a valid talking point because I think people are always concerned about maintaining promotion every time they change their role or even avoiding side steps. Like I've, I took two side steps in my career over four years, which means my salary basically didn't change for four years, but I did it to your point because like you said, you did it because you knew it was the right move, whether that be skill, whether that be company, whether that be for potential future growth, not just the next three to six months of immediate growth. I think.

30:40 I think it's a great piece of advice that sometimes you don't have to make a move that is a promotion or gives you more money or both if it's the right move. You'll know. It's that sort of gut feel, isn't it? It's that sort of, okay, on paper, it might not be a promotion and I might not get a salary increase, but in the long run, I know I'm going to thank myself. Yeah. And at that point, it was not like a gut feeling anymore. it was more...

31:10 reflection on why this company, because let's say globalization partners, for example, my first company was more like, said, yes, okay, I'm going to say yes. And that's why I started with them. And I was not doing like my due diligence on the founders, the product and stuff like that. So Chili Pepper was really like the first one where I had like my top 10 companies I want to work for. I did my research on the founders, the product, the growth of the company.

31:37 The investors, so it was really like I did my research and I knew I was making, I didn't care about moving to an S I saw it was pre-series A and the companies, they were to accelerate the growth because they knew they were going to get the series A. So at time I didn't know but when I said yes to the role, I think I joined at the right time.

32:05 less than 50 employees when I joined them. I take it you have one of the emails which was just your first name then, not second name. Would you say that again? So at Chili Piper, I know a lot of them have just their first name as the email. like elric at chilipiper.com. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I think that that's a sign that you were one of the early joiners. Yes, that's not that there's many people called Elric, at least not in the UK.

32:35 Even in France. So, okay. So for those who don't know about the chili Piper sort of journey, talk to me about, um, I know you got promoted. was a very good period of, uh, your sort of career. Talk to me about that. Um, that journey within chili Piper for that sort of two years. What did that look like for you? Yeah. So my journey there was, uh, so in total I got like four promotions, but the company was growing a lot. So, um,

33:05 And that's why also I think I got promoted on top of being a top rep at the company. because yes, you can be a top rep, but if the company is not growing, you won't get as many promotions. And I know that because it's not like what I did differently that I'm my first company. No, it's I was at the right company, right environment. And so I also know that helped me also to get this. But the journey was when I joined, we are like...

33:33 four or five SDRs, we were launching the ad-bound function, not launching but accelerating, hiring more people on the ad-bound function. So I joined to focus on the North American market and struggled a little bit at the beginning, but then starting to get some success. And then I got promoted to team lead, then to manager to manage the EMER region. And then the last role I got,

34:02 Chibab was leading the enterprise motion. I've got a very, very good friend of mine who has his background in enterprise sales. I know quite a bit about enterprise and the world of enterprise and the fact that it's potentially big money, but longer sales cycles, much more risk in terms of getting people to close because of the value of the deals, more people in the buying journey, et cetera, cetera.

34:32 Was that going from STR to enterprise team lead or managing a group of enterprise STRs? Even for a two year gap, that's still a, it's a jump, isn't it? Yeah, it's big jump. Also, if we think about leadership, because yeah, two things, it's leadership, also thinking about AdBurn enterprise accounts. Leadership, it was...

35:01 maybe two years in total at that point. So I had like more experience, more resources, would say, in terms of leadership, trainings or coaching. But I was still also reading, talking to people to learn the best practices and then also the same type figure out. So it was a big jump, but yeah, a lot of learnings too. Is the culture as good as I've heard?

35:31 I've bought from Heather Leo and I Tristan as an account manager. And I've spoken to them loads about Chili Piper and they speak so highly of it. is the culture as good as it looks from the outside? So yeah, the culture, when I was there, it was great. Tristan actually was, I was working with him on the Anthropos team and also the EME team when he was on the SDR team. I had a...

35:57 A lot of fun working with him and I met him a few times in, we met in France and Italy. Yeah. He lives in Milan, doesn't he? Very lucky man. I think he's, I'm sure he said one of his parents was Bostonian and then his other was Italian. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's a great mix. Bostonian and Italian. That's a, that's a good mix. Um, okay. So you got promoted four times in two years. What happened? Why on earth did you decide to leave? Like what was the, end?

36:26 Yeah, so I got laid off, actually. So it was not like my decision around the way I was living. the company grew too quickly. So.

36:41 They were, they made the decision to let go 20 % of the company in November. When you say the company grew too quickly, what do you mean by that? Headcount and the growth, because you have the headcount, they they're higher too quickly and the growth was not following up the headcount. So they got...

37:06 some investment, they had ambitious plans, the market was going really, really well, and they just, overinflated the hire, basically. They had a bit too much fat that they needed to trim. Yeah, not just on the SDR team, but I think overall on the company. if I have self-reflect just on the SDR team, also we started, and that's the prime, fat, the prime. When you hire more people on the team, and the SDR team, because that's where I have more experience, is use...

37:35 It's not because you have more people that you will get more results. Every time you hire more people, the efficiency is dropping. So for the ZR team, think that was also one of the reasons. Enterprise, for me specifically, asked to the VP when he made the decision to let me go, I said why. because I wanted to understand, I'm always trying to understand what I've done wrong. And basically, the enterprise function at that time was...

38:04 not producing enough RRR. So obviously, when you have the decision to cut some jobs, obviously, you're going to focus on first where you are not getting results. And Enterprise at that time was not a successful motion because we were just starting. Enterprise, it takes 18 months to 24 months to start getting results. So.

38:30 Yeah, it's an age old story. You get investment and it's that battle between need and want. So it's the roles that you actually need in order to scale are vastly different from the roles that you lead them. want so it's like a cabinet. It's like a kid in the candy store, right? You say to a kid, here's a hundred pounds and you put them into a sweet shop. They're going to spend a hundred pounds on sweets, even though it's going to make them feel sick. And it's exactly the same methodology of if you choose to spend that investment.

38:58 in very, very like specific roles that you take the time to understand. You tend to mitigate the chances of having to lay off. And you made a point there about the enterprise function. It's one of the most expensive sale parts of the sales function. The longest sales cycles, obviously the risk reward, the reward is massive if you bring on these clients, but the risk and the investment is, is big. it's, it's certainly a more mature sales function, which you, you

39:27 mentioned as well. It is because it's a more mature, it's a lot of alignment between sales, marketing, product, because I think enterprise, the enterprise motion is not just, yeah, you get a meeting with an enterprise account and that's it. No, because your product needs to be ready. Marketing needs to be ready also because it's enterprise, it's not like just one person and that's your deal is done.

39:56 It's a lot of efforts, a lot of investment in terms of money and people. yeah. And it's, obviously, there's a lot as an early stage company, you're going up against legacy companies that have been in the market for 10, 20, 30 years. They've got all the accreditations, the ISO, et cetera. And as a new company, can be quite costly and time, the time taken to get all of these accreditations and things, security, whatever, to be able to meet the needs of the enterprise.

40:26 companies. Yeah, I would say for this side, I think we are good. I think the main difference, because the biggest competitor at that time was Calendly for the enterprise motion. So the problem we had was we didn't have a PLG motion. So we are only says that. And actually, in Calendly, the opposite was PLG led. So I'm not saying that's the only reason, because obviously you have other reasons to lose this.

40:55 If we were against Kelen Lee, most of the time the team is already using Kelen Lee because it's a PLG led. You don't need to get a contract to start using Kelen Lee. And sometimes they had 100 users of Kelen Lee against us. it's OK. When you are a VP at a SaaS company, enterprise account, and you already have 100 persons saying, hey, we love Kelen Lee.

41:25 had to compete at some point. Obviously, I'm not saying it's not, it was impossible, but it was one of the change I would say we had. Yeah. Okay. So a couple of years at Chili Piper was really, really successful in terms of a development sort of period for you. Now you moved across to CastaDoc. What was the role that you went in at? Funding BDR. So here the company was Series A.

41:53 for post-series A, they were starting to invest in the go-to-market team and building the hardbound team specifically. was one of the first. I was the first BGR actually hired to build the hardbound motion. And it was interesting because here, was only, before this role, I was only focusing on business teams. So, Chilli Pepper was go-to-market revenue leaders, marketing leaders. Before that, TalkPush was HR leaders.

42:23 Before that globalization person was a finance leaders, but also HR leaders. And that was first time selling to a technical buyer person. We were selling to data leaders. And most of the time they work with the IT team. it was challenging. But interesting because I know going to the data market, working for data products, I was into the ecosystem of

42:52 Snowflake, Databricks, BigQuery, those big players in the market. For my benefit, what does CastaDoc do? So it's a data catalog and basically it's

43:10 We are not data leaders, but just to explain the main benefit I would say of using data.org is when you start to be a company, a data-driven company, and I'm not saying just because before joining CastorDoc, I thought I knew what was a data-driven company. After working with CastorDoc, I started to understand what's a data-driven company, but.

43:36 Basically, when you start using a modern data warehouse like Snowflake or Databricks, and you have a pretty big data team, you start having a lot of data sets around your tools. And it's pretty tricky to find what's the software's truth, which dashboard to use, what's the definition of revenue at this company. And you might think, yes, it's already

44:04 set up for all combined, but it's not. And basically, CastorDoc was helping with all of that, is finding the right assets, data assets, finding the right definitions. So for example, for the marketing team, the MQDefinition, CastorDoc was helping with all of that. So it was helping with documentation, finding the right data assets for the data team and the teams they were working with.

44:31 And we were working mainly with SaaS companies, FinTech companies and e-commerce companies. Interesting. I would find it not difficult to market for that industry or that particular product, but it doesn't excite me. Do you know what I mean? No, no, I understand. But for me, I was really interested because it's not as a user.

44:59 Working on the business side of the company is not a pain we are feeling, I would say. On the data side, yes it is. But actually moving to leadership, because I actually had my next company after CasterDoc, we some issues with similar issues we were solving at CasterDoc was we had like hundred dashboards, which one is the right one to use? Do you trust it? Because if you are using a dashboard that is not connected to the right...

45:28 things, it's not accurate. I was, it was really a pain that we are solving for the executive mainly because yes, we are selling to their teams, but who is using the data? The executive, those companies. Yeah. know, working in SASS, what is it now for me, like the last like four or five years, every single department seems to use a different

45:54 report in a different tool and try and match up the data and it's, it never works. So I can appreciate the use case, but from a marketer's point of view is like, have to, I don't know. have to feel like at least a little bit excited about what I'm working on or whatever. it's, it's tough. Okay. So, um, what you went into building out the outbound motion, that's the first time that you went in as sort of like a founding BDR responsible for building out a complete motion. So

46:21 What did that look like in terms of like how long you were there and what you learned? So I was there for a year, something like that.

46:35 It was, oh no, no, let's do it here, sorry. It was interesting because they didn't have anything in terms of outbound, so it was starting from scratch, so it was building everything from scratch. So trying to figure out the ICP because even though you are joining a new, it was a new company and that's a trend I've seen with early stage companies. They think they understand the ICP, they don't. So it was really nailing down the ICP, that was one.

47:03 the persona we are going after, and the messaging. That was mainly it. And the good thing was we already had like 50 plus customers. So it was great because it's not like you're starting from scratch. They don't have any customers. So you can focus on the people who already know the company and go after those. Because I would say if I'm comparing selling CheapApper to CastorDoc, at

47:32 Actually, if you put some effort in your outreach, you had some VP of say saying, oh, a good job on your outreach, but I'm not interested. And you say, oh, at least they've seen it at Castor Dock. When you're reaching out to VP of data, even though you had some efforts, you don't get the kudos for your tweets. It's no replies most of the time. yes or no. that's it. yeah, I know a couple of mates who work in cyber security sales.

48:02 Yeah. And it's a similar market. It's very, very dry, very tough. Yeah. Some of the, some of the channels that we're all familiar with in SaaS just don't work, et cetera, et cetera. Again, cybersecurity is not an industry that I necessarily want to be doing any marketing. Yeah. And, and for the same reason, I think it's, I think it's pretty similar and people, think for me, my take on this is technical by your persona. They don't like these people and, um,

48:32 Pray and pray with them, it's worst. You can't do that at all because if they don't access people and you do spray and pray, it doesn't work with them. it was really interesting. think technical biopersonas, I'm not saying they are completely different than business biopersona, but I really enjoy it because we were like, yeah, we had a lot of great conversation with big teams around the world and...

49:01 I really enjoy my time there. So it was interesting. you were, if I'm right, you said you were there less than a year. what, how come it was, how come it was less than a year? Similar situation. I didn't get laid off this time, but they laid off some part of the go-to-market team. Similar reason as a chili piper. I think chili piper, they made the decision too late. It was more like this decision of letting go people.

49:30 was supposed to be earlier because he was like, I think too late in terms of runway and if we talk about the financial aspect of it. At Gastodoc, they made this in three years before.

49:45 letting, if we're comparing to Chilli Pepper, it was six months before being, how do you say that? Running out of money at Castorlac was three years before that. And I think it was, yeah, good decision because they are not seeing the results. But same Castorlac was really a enterprise focus. So obviously you need investment. So they made a decision of letting go 10 people.

50:17 Well, I know it's tough working for a company after a layoff, so I was still working there, but I had the opportunity to join the next role. And I took it, basically, because I'm not saying, like we were talking earlier, yes, I can put the effort, working really hard, being...

50:42 I'm not saying it's a wrong environment, but it's a tough environment because if you are less people focused on the auto press motion, I know it's going to be tough. So I'm not saying I don't like to be in a tough environment, but being in a good environment also, it's helpful to have some success. So, yeah, you sound more of a realist. you, it's not, yeah, it's not, you understand the work and you're not afraid of it, but as a realist, you're like,

51:10 Is that what I want right now? Is it worth it in this particular point in my career or whatever, in terms of what, uh, was going to help you develop or what you, what you needed or wanted from a, from a career. So you moved across to, um, how do I pronounce that? go up. Um, and that was, uh, again, like, uh, if a step up again, right. So you moved from, uh,

51:37 SDR sort of team leads to founding BDR and then to global SDR manager. Exactly. Yeah. I joined to be leading the global team. At that time we had like five reps when I joined. And what sort of regions we talking? Worldwide. So we had two reps for North America, two reps for EMEA and one person for APAC. And aside from the points that we just spoke about,

52:07 in terms of why you considered leaving the previous company. Why did you choose this particular company to be your next move? Because I was trying to launch the outbound motion. Because I had the five reps, but they were all inbound focus. So demo requests and free tries mainly. And I was excited to add the outbound layer at the company. Here the company is

52:37 50 % VC back from the day and 50 % booster because yes, there is money a long time ago, but they were operating like a booster company. it was, when I joined the company was already at like 180 people, but the goal was to build the outbound team. In terms of building the outbound, was it that they were predominantly inbound company at the time?

53:04 Yes, I, I, it's like a 95 % of the revenue was coming from inbound channels. Right. So it was, um, I mean, I, again, I've experienced this, um, in the past. I think, uh, changing a company's, um, revenue or GTM motion from primarily inbound to, um, a hybrid outbound inbound is challenging to say the least. So how long were you, um, how long were you there?

53:34 Eight months. Eight months, okay, right. Yeah, but we are, yeah. Okay. Talk to me about the eight months. It was, yeah. It was, Yeah, because we are going to talk about why I left, yeah, the short answer is I got fired. So it was eight months. Interesting.

54:02 A lot of learning because I was working directly with the CEO and the VP of sales. So it was a lot of learning. yeah, like you mentioned earlier, it's switching from inbound, finessive switching, but it's adding the layer because we are not removing the inbound motion. It's on top of it, we are going to add a bound. And it's...

54:29 Yeah, it's a, it's a change. And in terms of having the right people or being the processes, having the right tools, because for inbound and outbound, it's two different ways of reporting, reporting, but the tools, but also the skills you need for your team, are different. Yeah. The skills required for a true outbound sales rep. So, you know, they're actually quite difficult to come across a very, very good outbound sales rep. So, all right then. So.

54:59 You said it was a great opportunity to learn. You were working directly with the VP and the CEO. I take it the eight months stint was just a case of it wasn't the right fit for the company and for yourself in terms of that particular role. Would that be right? Yeah, I know we are going to ask if I have some questions on self-reflection after that, but I think I didn't do enough due diligence before saying yes to the role. So,

55:28 Some goals that I had for my team was not achievable. And we can talk about that and say why or not. I think the way they give me the numbers, didn't do enough due diligence about changing those numbers. Because the other company I was working at, I said, yeah, don't think the company...

55:56 It's going to be tough. I was maybe looking for an alternative and I say yes too quickly. would say. So yeah, I, it's, it's an all too familiar story of when you're looking for your next step, because you're not necessarily entirely happy where you are. You, you, you might overlook certain things or you might, um, it's that rose tinted glasses of it looks better than it is because you're in what you think at the time is a, it's a worse situation,

56:25 The reason that the only reason I wanted to talk about it is because I think it's it's very, very common and it is complete reality. And just the way the market is the way that the sales profession is that I think you could speak to a hundred people in sales and a good 90 plus of them would have been fired at some point in their career. That's just the reality for sales. So it's completely normal. I'm not highlighting it because of any other reason.

56:52 other than for people who are considering going into sales or for people who are very early on in their sales journey, sales career, be prepared to be fired. Like it's very, very common. Yeah. No, I agree with you on that. And, I think also it's,

57:10 I was listening to a podcast last week and they were talking about that on the podcast. They were talking about when you make a decision to join a company, should do the same work as a VC company is doing on the company when they decide to the money into a company. The problem when you join a company is you invest your time. And it's not you can work for three companies at the same time.

57:37 And that's why you need to do more research, I would say, before saying yes to a company. So I think that was my biggest mistake with this work, actually. I was on a previous episode and I've listened to other podcasts and there's this growing trend now that in an interview, it's not just the company interviewing you, you're interviewing the company as well.

58:06 When a hiring manager or a recruiter or someone in TA says, have you got any questions for us? That is the prime opportunity for you to grill them. And I mean, grill them. Like this is the, this is the place you're going to spend 40 to 60 hours a week for the next, hopefully few years building your career. So you have to get as much out of it as they get out of you. that to your point, definitely use it as an opportunity to do your, do

58:34 due diligence and if you've got any questions, ask the questions. Oh, I noticed that you're you flatlined on your revenue for a couple of years. Why was that? I noticed that you reduced headcount last year. Why was that? Because all of these things are publicly available. You can find them on LinkedIn. You can buy them on Companies House in the UK in terms of people's revenue and your balance sheets and your stuff like that. That's true. Even though I did that, it was not enough. And when I say due diligence, it's going deeper than that.

59:04 So give us an example. us an example. So yeah, because I know that was one question we're going to talk about after. specifically for this company, something I didn't change them on the goals they give me. Because basically they told me, you have five reps. The goal for this team is x. But the problem with it bound, because if you think about how bound

59:31 Goal settings for SDR teams or BDR teams. So inbound versus outbound. Outbound is you have one or another account, you know your conversion rate, you know how many accounts you need to get X amount of meetings. Inbound is different because inbound it's not like you say, yeah, I need one thousand accounts to get my results. No, because how do you get demo requests? That's the marketing effort most of the time.

01:00:01 the ads, LinkedIn ads, Facebook ads, whatever they are building. all the programs they are running, marketing is running, is going to produce X amount of demo request per month. What I didn't do well is they say, yeah, we have five reps and the goal is this and their achievement is this. I'm not sharing those numbers because unfortunately I can't, but my point is they were really low in terms of the quota attainment, but the problem was

01:00:31 Yeah, but is it really the team that's the or do we have enough efforts for marketing? But the question is not marketing is doing enough. the real question is, do we need five reps for our InBOM? And the answer was no. The answer was no, because we didn't have enough efforts, not efforts, but results for marketing in terms of free tries or demo requests and.

01:00:58 Yes, I can improve the conversion rate, but even though was improving the show rate on demo requests or having a better qualification process from the reps, we were still far from the results. So my point was not changing enough, I would say, the plan, saying why is it this number? Because basically you say, you have five reps, they should produce this. Yeah, but the right is what has the company, what

01:01:25 How many demo requests were processing per month? How many free tools do get per month? It's not because I'm going to add 10 inbound SDLs that we're going to produce more, because unfortunately inbound reps doesn't work this way. And I didn't, I would say, had enough experience, I would say, knowledge to change that at that point. But the answer was we need two inbound reps and we need to produce what's missing, 10 to 15 outbound reps.

01:01:55 And that's how much it costs. here's the plan. Here's the tools we need to do this, to do this, to this. And here's the cost of doing this. Are we ready to do that? And the answer was no. Because it's not in the hiring process. I've done those numbers, but after three, four months after, and it was, I would say if I do that during the hiring process, maybe the role will be different.

01:02:22 So, yeah, so use your experience to channel the team setup, to channel the funnel, to other departments' investment. You know, what's the marketing budget look like? What does the marketing team look like? Okay, yeah, that's good advice. That's good advice. And like I said, use the opportunity to grill them. Exactly. And also, I'm not saying they are wrong. They were wrong. I'm right. No, it's also what you want to assess is...

01:02:52 Can they not... Are they open-minded about another option? would say. It's not like I have the right answer because no, it's... think that's not the right thing to think about the way you... I was not...

01:03:12 Because I didn't do my job, it was lost. I could sell them the idea, it was too late. Okay, so that was 2024. So when was it that you left in 2024? May 2024. So yeah. Cool. And then where did you... I mean, I know the answer to this, but what happened after that point?

01:03:40 Yeah, so I took some time to reflect on my next steps. And yeah, and for now, because I had like, I was posting on LinkedIn, I'm a podcasting news editor. So I said, maybe I should, maybe now is the right time to double down on my business. So that's the decision I made in September. So since September, I'm focusing on my business. And what is your business? So...

01:04:08 I have two pillars, but now I'm focused more on one than the other. I had one pillar is fractional SDR leadership services, where I'm working with early stage companies, whether launching about more established companies with 200 plus SDRs, for example. And the other pillar is

01:04:31 You can call it a media company or whatever you want to call it, but I have a podcast newsletter, but now I'm doubling down on that, on writing deep dives on top admin teams. So for example, I've written two, one on Snowflake and one on Rippling. And that's what I'm focusing on right now. basically I'm doing...

01:04:59 The type of content I wish I had when I was in my role at my company. I'm trying to gather, it's not like just my experience. I'm trying to gather the experience of other companies. Obviously Snowflake, they have 300 plus SDR. So you can say, yeah, maybe it's not applicable to my business, but you still have the way they're thinking about our bond. can see, apply that to your stage. But basically I'm trying to gather like when I'm...

01:05:26 For example, I've written the ASEAN Carrier Path. I gathered the information from 20 ASEAN teams, and I written a deep dive on that. here's what you can do, basically based on your stage. Here's the example of Snowflake. Here's an example of Rippling, for example. And you can use that for your company. And that's a lot of resources that I didn't have when I was doing my job, outside of just talking to ASEAN leaders. Now my goal is to really make it

01:05:56 really great. Interesting. Okay, then. Right. So we've done a bit of a deep dive walkthrough of your sort of career path over the last sort 10ish years. And we'll do we usually finish off these episodes with a roundup, some quickfire questions. So question number one is top three tips for career progression, top three tips for climbing the career ladder. Number one is during a growing company.

01:06:26 And bonus point, if it can be a growing market. Example, when I joined Jelly Paper, the company was growing, but the market also is growing because companies can grow if the market also can grow. But obviously, the company can grow even though the market is not growing. But that's number one, because if the company is growing, then we have more people. If there more people, they will hire for different roles, management roles also. So that's number one. Obviously,

01:06:56 you need to get some success in your world because if you want to be the first one they are thinking about, you need to already have some success, but you need to be also vocal about it because if you don't say what you want to do, you won't be the first person they are thinking about. What I mean by that is when I moved to leadership at Shea Bapper, I was saying, yeah, I want to move to leadership. And so was always one of the first ones they were thinking about to the promotion because I was...

01:07:24 Yeah, sharing why I want to, what I want to do next. And I was also proactive on this because it's not just, I want to do it. If we go back to TalkPush when I said I was already coaching the rest of the team, even though I was not a manager, that's my point is you need to coach already people. need to share what's working for you. Obviously, I'm not saying that's the only part of the world, but it's...

01:07:53 aspect of it. last one is, I think it says if we go back to being in the right environment, having a strong sales culture also in the company is so powerful because it's, I'm not saying, being in the right environment makes sales super easy, I would say. And I've been part of companies where the sales culture was not great, like my first company.

01:08:22 Well, it's, it's Chili pepper and the rest of the companies where they, are like great says culture. And I think he makes, uh, it helped with making the job easier. Yeah. It's interesting. You're the, your second one there about taking on tasks from the job that you want next and not just focusing on the task at hand for your current role. That's, that's come up quite a few times. And I think it's, it's not only great for

01:08:49 uh, career progression, but I think doing the tasks of the job that's sort of next makes your current job way, way easier. Um, so I think, you go on, know why? Because, uh, now I've been, I've hired more than 30 reps from, um, and one aspect when I am hiring for my teams most of the time is I'm not just analyzing the person based on what they're saying, but what they are doing.

01:09:18 in the hiring process because it's easy to say, yeah, I'm a curious person. Show me. Because it's easy to say, I'm a curious person, but show me some examples. And that's why I'm saying that because it's easy to say, I want to be in leadership, but you are not showing it. You are not already coaching reps or helping with hiring, for example. Obviously, you can do a lot of things, but.

01:09:45 saying and doing it is for me, it's two different things. Yeah. I think the reason I call it out is because of, unfortunately, I feel like we're in this period where a lot of people expect things to be gifted to them on a platter, just handed to them on a plate. I think you've, you've just got to the work in. You've got to pull your sleeves up and you've got to do things that aren't in your job description. Sometimes that's just the reality of it, but it pays off in the future. So, you know,

01:10:15 suck it up, it'll pay off. It's the reason why you hear so many people talk about it on this series and other series is because it's true. So that would definitely be one to jot down or take away. Do you have any regrets? Yes, absolutely. But because if you think about it, yes, I have some regrets, I think based on our decisions that we, I would say.

01:10:43 We are, how can I say that in English? I'm here because of the bad and great decision I made. But yes, I have regrets. So one, if we go back, we talk about the enterprise team. They were sharing internally the financial deck they were sharing with the board. one is, if I read it correctly, I knew it was coming.

01:11:14 I joined, I would say, the wrong team, unfortunately, but that's the way it is. So my regret is picking the wrong team. And if I was on the team, producing revenue, maybe I would still be at the company, but that's the way it is. learn. I go to Apple, like we said earlier, I say yes too quickly, didn't do enough research, or I didn't change enough the plan for the SDR function. And I think also,

01:11:41 At some point in my career, I was approached by other companies and I said no too early. And when I see where they are today at those companies, so I have two, one is deal and the other one is Databricks. And if you know where they are in terms of stage today, you could say, yeah, I think it's a regret in the sense of where I could have tried at least to get into the hiring process. I was happy at that time with my other job.

01:12:11 That's the way it is, but yeah, I would say that's my regrets, but yeah, I think I'm okay with those decisions. Yeah, you're at peace with the decisions, but if you were going to, in hindsight, if you had the same decision put in front of you now, you might make a different one. I think, I reckon 100%. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You've now got the data and you've got time and wisdom. But I think, I think.

01:12:40 100 % of the planet would say the same. okay. Databricks and there, for example, if I did my due diligence on those two companies, two companies dealing data breaks, the growth rate was really insane. So like the phrase sometimes like it is what it is because you can't go back and change it. like you said, every decision that you've made is

01:13:10 got you to where you are today. Okay. So what's next on, what's the next step for you? Building my solo business. That's my focus right now. So re-engaging it. I know it's still early. Sometimes I'm thinking did I made the right decision? But I know every time that I'm talking to someone building their own business, it's the best decision that they made. so yeah.

01:13:40 That's my next step for my career. And do you have an ultimate end goal? Because I think not everyone will. Some people are very, very fortunate that they know an exact title or an exact place, career, industry that they want to get to. But you have like a top of Mount Everest that you want to get to.

01:14:03 I know the things I don't want, but I don't, maybe I don't have Well, hey, that's perhaps more powerful that you know what you don't want. Yes, exactly. So I don't want to have like an agency or running a big service business company because it's... I think it's okay and it can work, but right now I'm really enjoying working solo and...

01:14:32 I know some point I will have some freelancers and contractors who help me on some aspect of the business, but I don't want to have an agency. I know completely I don't want that because most of time I'm talking to companies running services businesses. They are working too much. Yes, I'm making great money, but they are not happy with the situation. If I'm building a business, you can do a lot of things, but...

01:15:01 that's talking to founders of service businesses and not going to follow this path. this one. No, it's one of the most high stress sort of, I don't know, company setups that you can have. For example, but I know for me on my side doing my sort of business, I know I want to make more episodes on my podcast, having better guests.

01:15:26 I really do improve the, I'm working on improving the quality. I'm already at what I'm doing. The problem with that is unfortunately I don't have enough hours in the week today to do it, but that's why also at some points when I will have enough cash, I can have more free gen sellers or contractors who help me produce more quality on what I'm already doing. Okay. Well, it's been really, really interesting to talk about.

01:15:54 your career and I appreciate the honesty and the open openness in terms of talking about, you know, being fired. Like I said, it's not my intention to twist the knife. It's just I think it's very, very valuable to talk about it for those listening and watching. So I appreciate the candid candidness. Yeah, of course. And if we think about that, I'm trying also to because it's easy to blame the company or blame the situation.

01:16:25 Sometimes it's also you, you made maybe the wrong decisions or maybe you did something wrong. And I'm always trying to focus on what I did wrong instead of just blaming. it's obviously can be both, well, it's, it's a very, very, um, mature outlook on, uh, in terms of the self self review and, I tried to think of the phrase, but in terms of like self review and self awareness, that's it self awareness.

01:16:53 Very, very high self-awareness, is, which is brilliant. So for those listening or watching, um, or reading, thanks for tuning in. Um, we hope you've enjoyed the episode and we will catch you in the next episode. And thanks for the invite.