From Selling Timeshares to CRO and now Co-Founder with Nazma Qurban

00:03 Welcome to another episode of Revenue Career Ladder, your go-to source for real career stories, practical advice and actual insight from revenue pros who've been there, done that and are here to help you climb towards your dream job. in this episode, I'm joined by Nazbar Khurban and we're to be chatting about her journey from selling timeshares to CRO and now co-founder. Now I'm quite interested in this one because it's a bit more of a SaaS vibe and we haven't had a huge amount of SaaS in these conversations so far.

00:32 So I think that would be really, really good. Um, and certainly some, I would call it maybe SAS pedigree in terms of, uh, your background and some of the, some of the companies you've worked for, but without further ado, how are you? So good. I'm very happy to be here. So yeah, that is good. That sounded sarcastic, but you're just, generally, yeah. It's very interesting. say that it's sarcastic because I think that I'm just naturally quite an optimistic person.

01:01 And yeah, it's, it can be quite, yeah. I'm sure we'll, we'll probably pick up on some of the optimistic vibes throughout your career. So we usually start these conversations going all the way back to your first ever job, which for you, you've got down as timeshare. So do you want to just explain what that is and how it came about? It probably came about because back in the day, you

01:31 If you wanted to look for a job, you would open up your local newspaper and there would be a section of jobs to apply to. And so that's what I did. I applied for a job. was 15 years old. And yeah, I ended up starting and working evenings. My phone is going off. I'm just turning this off. And I was working evenings. So like to my surprise, the very first day that I...

02:00 got into the office, we had a bit of training and then we all sat down and there's a woman, the manager, who's walking around, I'm not kidding you, a BT phone book and she was tearing pages out and then just assigning them to everyone. And that was it, that was my first job where I was calling people during their primed in a time and pitching them the opportunity of attending a timeshare event.

02:28 And this was at age 15. Yeah. I can remember even probably at age like 15, I hated making phone calls. Like my mum would force me to answer the phone. So I would just get used to answering the phone. But I was like, nah, nah, just, just text them or whatever it was back then. So 15 making cold calls. That must've been very interesting. Yeah. I mean, I didn't know any different. It was just, oh, it's a job and you have to call people and they're at home.

02:59 And yeah, got lot of abuse. And yeah, I got it just goes back to like, I didn't know any different. I thought, okay, right, this is just a job and this is what everyone else is doing. And then I just cracked on and persevered. And what were your motivations for getting a job at that point? I only asked because it's very, very different for everyone in terms of I wanted money to go out. I wanted money to buy clothes or was it?

03:25 I just need to get into the world of work.

03:31 It was just, it's a really difficult question to answer because I don't think, but perhaps it was, okay, I wanted clothes or just that I wanted to have a job. It would be cool to have a job and to have money.

03:46 I only like for me it was basically my mum saying right you're 14 now go and get a job. So that was kind of like the decision was kind of made for me and then obviously once you start getting money you understand the value of it and then you kind of want a bit more of it and you want to do a bit more on the side. So was that literally your first ever job or did you have like a paper round or something like that? That was I'd say like the first

04:14 job which was in a structured environment, I would say... So we never had... So I come from an ethnic minority background and we don't do allowances. They don't exist. mean, it was such a bizarre concept for me to even learn that there was such a thing as allowances. And so I think...

04:40 potential and now that I'm thinking about it when I got to the age of 14, 15, I wanted clothes and you know, you're going to puberty and said you want to look pretty and there was, you know, my parents wouldn't just buy me things and so perhaps that was one of the reasons why but I've never really thought too deeply into into why and yeah, because if I didn't, who else would give it to me? Who else would buy me the things? was just... Yeah, it speaks to a

05:10 level of work ethic in terms of I'm not going to get an allowance and I want stuff so I have to go and work and for I think perhaps more recent in more recent years there's I think a certain expectation from the younger generation of being given things rather than earning it and perhaps on the whole the work ethic of old has kind of been lost a little bit. I'll tell you something really interesting that I learned about myself the other day so we were

05:40 We have a very small team and we were talking about jobs and all the different types of jobs that we've all done throughout education, when you're in school, when you go to university. And I've always had a job. I have worked since the age of 15. I've never really gone without. And I mean, I've had some very, very interesting jobs. And I kid you not, I've just loved every single one of them. The only time that I didn't like working

06:10 Ironically was when it was my very first job after graduating. But prior to that, I, perhaps it was a, okay, well, I'm going to have to work and because potentially that there was a time limit, I knew that, it was due for this period of time. And so I gamified it. I was, I worked in Asda. That was also like one of my very first like stocking shelves. I loved the job. I used to wake up so excited, like going.

06:39 to work and like just being the best shelf stacker and like taking like a lot of pride. And then also about saving people because of course I had limited and that was when I was around 16, 17 years old. And I remember meeting new people because I didn't really, when you're...

07:03 When you're in school, you're limited with friends that you make because they're the only ones that you have. And so you have sort of like a limited mindset. And so when you go into the working world, I met so many interesting people that were three years older than me, four years older, 10, 20 years older than me. And so I was, I just loved meeting and talking to people. I actually ended up getting fired from Asda because I was talking too much. I mean, it's just such a ridiculous reason to get fired, but yeah, I just love the people I was working with and, and I felt.

07:33 on reflection, all the roles, including, I know we're going off in a tangent because- No, this is exactly what this series is about. Okay. So I'm going off in a tangent, but because this is also a job that I had. And I only thought about it the other day when I was speaking to my mom and she was talking about how difficult it is because we're from Pakistani background and her nephews and her family have come over to this,

08:03 They've studied here and then it's been quite challenging for them to get roles. And she was talking about how difficult it was. And I was like, mom, do you remember when I was at university and I came back one summer, I got a job as a waitress in a hotel, in a hotel chain. It was a really nice hotel chain in Windsor. And I used to get up at 5 a.m. to be ready for the 6 a.m. breakfast shift.

08:32 I do that entire shift up until like just after lunchtime. I'd go home, I would then nap and rest up. And then I'd get ready for the 6 p.m. shift up until midnight. I was like, that was really hard. And so not that I'm saying that my cousins don't have a hard time, but I was just on reflection. that was, I was so, I remember going home some days being so tired. My feet were hurting and my brain.

09:00 I was finding it really difficult to go to sleep. I just think to myself, I didn't need the money at the time. And I think it was just, oh, you just have to work. It's just something that you do. But I love that also, like just getting up and I ended up meeting like so many very interesting people from very different backgrounds. Again, I'm big people person and also taking pride in the work that I do.

09:23 A couple of bits I want to pick up on. I love the gamification of the job. So if it's stocking shelves or stacking shelves, it's like, how many shelves can I stack in my eight hours or how quickly can I do this one bank of shelves? Was that the sort of gamification you're talking about? Yeah. I'm very competitive, it has to be better than everyone else's. Right. And so just like taking it to another level. that was it. Yeah. My first job was in a garden center restaurant. like

09:53 Saturday and Sunday, it was like the old nana's come in for cake and coffee and roast dinners and stuff. And I always used to, I gamified getting better at cutting a joint of beef, as in it was like, I want to be, I want to get the maximum number of slices out of this beef. So it's the most efficient. yeah, I like that. I like that. But I agree with you in terms of, I don't want to use the word woke, but it just feels as if there's a lot more complaining about having to work certain number of hours or two jobs or two shifts. And I think what

10:22 my second proper job was Debenhams and that was 12 hour shifts on a Saturday. And it was just you just did it. It was like eight to eight and you had a couple of breaks during the day and they wouldn't let you go a minute over your breaks or anything like that. But you just you just did it because you had a job at school and then when you enter university, you either you had rich parents who gave you no allowance or you worked at weekends, you could afford alcohol. It was like that you just had to be done.

10:50 And interestingly, I'm sure it was a bank holiday and you get paid double. You're like, yes, I'm definitely working on a Sunday or on a bank holiday. So, yeah, I worked every bank holiday. Okay, right. you, you were cold calling with timeshares at 15. You were getting a lot of, I'd imagine angry people at six o'clock in the evening when they're just about to sit down and eat their dinner. But you then decided that another role that might be

11:19 good would be going into recruitment, is that right? So what happened was, was just so that we get like the sequence of events, like, right. That was the very first one. I probably was there for, I don't know, like a month, I don't know, six weeks, and then it shut down as it does. I was born and brought up in Sadal, so there's a lot of these sort of like core centers that pop up.

11:50 And then you just get a bit of experience and then all of a sudden they've just disappeared. an interesting- then it rebrands and opens a week later as another call center. Yeah, exactly. Interestingly, the office that I was in, because it's based in Salao, the office was actually filmed in the same building and it was just like, yeah, one floor. Anyways, I digress. So after that, I didn't know, I had tons of jobs, right?

12:18 Like I said before, I worked as a waitress. I worked as, um, in a phone store for many years. So you name it. I've just done everything, the job. then after I graduated, I studied law at university. The very fast, let's call it professional job was in recruitment. And what was the, we've had quite a lot of recruitment that's come up in these, these conversations. And it's typically I needed the job and.

12:46 there were loads of recruitment jobs, funnily enough, recruitment and sales, there tends to be just an endless list of recruitment jobs available at any one time. Was that the logic behind it or did you actually think recruitment could be for me? want to get into recruitment. Okay, so I studied law at university and as you can imagine, my parents were quite disappointed. I didn't want to pursue a career in law. And so I...

13:14 It wasn't just their disappointment, to be honest with It was also the fact that I wanted to prove that I made the right decision to myself and to others and all my friends were going on and pursuing their career in law. So I literally just took a step back, I put it probably into some certain Google, okay, what are the careers that are... Basically, because I was limited, I had studied law and there was no other experience that I had.

13:41 I was limited with the types of opportunities that would give me fast progression and that's what I was looking for. So I did tons of research around different career paths. And I mean, I even considered like going and studying medicine just like, because I was very open to like what is next, a new law wasn't for me. And so it just, I just kept coming back to sales and all of the best CEOs in the world always had like this kind of sales background. so for me,

14:10 It also led in very nicely with my experience because I'd done call, I'd worked in call centers, I'd sold, yeah, phones. And so it felt like, okay, right, sales is the right path. And I interviewed and I, I'm not exaggerating. I was probably rejected 70 times before I got accepted to the first job that I went to, that I ended up joining Progressive Recruitment, which was a really good recruitment company.

14:39 But yeah, I applied to any and any sales job and then finally someone took me on. That's really, really interesting. Actually, that's probably the most considered research based decision to go into recruitment that we've come across, which is interesting that you I think it speaks to a degree of aspirational, aspirational thinking and work ethic in terms of right. I want to progress. I want to, I don't know, earn more, be more successful, reach a certain level.

15:09 what's the quickest way of doing it? And then you actually made a decision based on that. Whereas a lot of people kind of seem to fall into it, which is very, very interesting actually. And what were some of the reasons why, okay, I'm going to place a bet. I'm going to make an assumption that the reason why you got rejected to a lot of them is that you were too aspirational and they thought she might join and then in six months time move elsewhere for a better, better gig. We want someone who's going to be a lifer.

15:36 Was that am I along the right lines? No, no. Oh, damn it. The reason why I was rejected was because I was having shit at interviewing Jamie. was. Right. OK. At least you're honest. I just yeah. mean, yeah, like I said, I went through loads of interview processes and it was a learning curve for me because I think interviewing is also a skill. And so I hadn't quite nailed that skill and it had to take me so many interviews and so much rejection to understand, to get the feedback.

16:06 and keep persevering. Something interesting, because there may be a lot of people in the beginning of their journey that are going to be listening in. I remember having conversation with a recruiter and I said to her, because all my friends had then started getting jobs, like full-time jobs, to continue and then working part-time. And this is very common when you leave university because you need income. And so people just get into jobs and then they do part-time. And I asked them, like, what do think I should do?

16:36 because when it comes to my job, because I was offered more hours, she's like, don't take it. This is a full-time job. Finding a job is full-time. And so I was very, again, intentional about finding a role. And again, and the reason why, because again, I was like, okay, right, I've just graduated and I need to have a good salary. I at the time it was 18K. That was really, really good. A very good salary.

17:06 And so I, and yeah, just compare myself with everyone else. I mean, I was like, well, most people are like 12, like some, I think the minimum wage at the time was 12K. I'm showing my age now. So it was, it was a lot of money in comparison to other people that like, that went down a different route. Yeah. Well, I think, I think we're a similar age. So I do remember,

17:32 That sort of 18, 19 K was like a good, very good, like entry sort of start point. What were, um, well, the first thing was that you said about the job hunting being a full-time job. And I've seen a lot of that recently where people actually show how applying for a job is almost like sales in itself, doing cold outreach, doing emails, making sure you connecting with as many stakeholders of the business as possible. Like making sure your LinkedIn profile show is, you know, a digital CB and things like that. There's a.

18:01 A lot of tactics and strategy evolved in finding jobs nowadays. So that's, that's definitely interesting. What, what would you say the, if you were to give like a good piece of advice for the actual interview itself that you've learned over the course of your career, looking back that you could have applied in those 70 other rejections? And I think writing

18:27 Every single potential question that you're going to be asked and having just a good answer goes through it again and again and again. So anytime you ask a question, that's it. I used to do that. My mom, we didn't have chat GPT at the time because that would be good of like, give me a 25 example questions for this job title. It would be brilliant on chat GPT now, but it was just a case of mom, can you ask me some questions you think someone might ask in this interview? Yeah, but she was a teacher. So she kind of like, that was her

18:57 That was basically her area. OK, then. So you went into recruitment, consultant and company called Progressive Recruitment. What did you just go in as a I don't know what is it literally recruitment consultant? That's the first job title, isn't it? In the recruitment hierarchy? mean, different companies work differently. You could you some. And make you start as a resource, which is basically just candid acquisition.

19:25 Whereas this was a 360 role where I was acquiring, I was finding new business and then I was acquiring the candidates for the role. And how long were you in recruitment? For quite some time. So maybe like two years. Yeah. And that's yeah, for recruitment, that's, that's a good stint. Like you is typically within the first three months, if you really hate it, you quit. And then in the first nine months, if you don't bill, you quit. So two years is a good...

19:55 a good stint on recruitment. was, Jamie, I was not good. was not good. I was not good. Yeah, I have no idea how I just made it like that far. I really didn't enjoy it. I'm loving the honesty. So you're shit at interviewing and then you are shit at recruitment. So why were you shit at recruitment? I think perhaps...

20:20 At that time, perhaps it was my age, I'm not really good with like emotionally like regulating myself. And so knowing you have, you have your client, which is a person who has emotions, who can change, you know, decisions, they make, you know, decisions. And you also have candidates who also can be very, yeah, unstable. And so almost your products are two things and then you're spinning those two things around. And I just couldn't deal with that. And it was a...

20:49 a roller coaster. And, and when I was thinking, okay, what do I do after this? For me, when I was thinking about tech, and it was like, it was coming up. And I was like, okay, right, maybe I should explore this. It's like, well, my product doesn't change. So as your candidates are dating in mind all the time, right, they have lots of influences, whereas the only thing that needs to really be able to like control is like one thing, and that is my client. And so that's, yeah, that's

21:19 That was, I think it was, I found it really, really challenging to manage both. Yeah, no, I, one of my previous partners was in recruitment and the volatility and the roller coaster of emotions of like having a good couple of weeks placing candidates and then five months out of the six months of their notice period, they decide the job's not for them. They drop out and you don't get your commission. And it's like, and that's another like hit of, you know, just bad.

21:50 I don't know, into like making you feel shit about the about the job. But was yeah, it was very, very up and down. And like you said, you're you're selling people, professionals as people, but also the business and very, very subjective in terms of, no, we've we've actually changed the role slightly. We're actually going to drop the budget of the role. Oh, and then the roles we were no longer placing the role. And that's like that happened all too often with with with clients.

22:20 Okay, did you in those two years, you must have learned something, even if you were terribly, you must have learned something. I've learned so much. I mean, I wouldn't be the person that I am. I mean, every single role in my life has, like, honestly, even from I mean, yeah, there's lots of examples I could give you. But I think the fundamentals of I mean, it was like the best entry role for me. To put things in perspective, and I

22:48 I think the STR is having really easy these days and I'm quite intense anyway and I think a lot of my intensity actually came from those early days where it was very much a volume game. this is no exaggeration. We'd have a computer and it was not software on the cloud side so it was like on-premise and we'd have like numbers to pull through and I would...

23:17 dial the number and wait to be connected. If I'm not connected, I'd put the phone down and then I'd lift it up immediately after and then dial the next number. And that was it. That was it. That was it. And so if there were, if I did have a conversation, I was writing the notes as I was having the conversation and you know, you'd have these like competitive, like these boards and you know, by lunchtime, how many dials you made. mean, were times I made 600, 300 dials by lunchtime.

23:45 I mean, it's not out of the realms of possibility if you're not getting connections, right? So I think volume, I learned how to be very intense, volume. Yeah, that into my, I think a lot of my intensity comes in that period of time. Yeah, it's a bit, it's very, very almost cold blooded, but the margins are fairly tight in recruitment, aren't they? So it is a volume play. Unless you're in like fairly bespoke C-suite or very niche industries, the margins are fairly low, aren't they?

24:13 Well, I would say that even with the volume, played out later on when I became an SDR, because I did way more volume than anybody else, because it was like, I was just used to doing this. So for me, it was, yeah, a walk in the park when it comes to doing the activity, because I'd already built that muscle. I have heard it quite a few times when people say like, recruitment isn't necessarily something that most people will stick at long term, but in terms of like doing it for a year or two and how much you learn.

24:39 going through the stress and the rejection and just the volume and hitting the numbers and the dials, it's really, really good for just cutting your teeth and building some foundations. So that's that's probably a good takeaway of if you're struggling to think of what you want to do next, why not just go into something like recruitment or sales and just start working because you're going to learn something even if you hate it and you'll shit it. Okay, then. So you did that for two years.

25:07 What was the final straw? Like why did you, after two years go right there, I've had enough of this. I I was just like deeply unhappy and I was not, I don't like the feeling of not being good at something, right? I despise it. I don't do anything I'm not good at. I avoid it like the You do. Like bowling, don't do bowling. Like my nephews are like, I like bowling. I'm sick of bowling. So whenever someone's like, you want to go bowling? I'm like, yes, absolutely. Seven strikes incoming.

25:37 But the golf, I can't do golf. I tried it, can't do it. We'll sold everything. We'll never play it again. And now you say, I just don't like it. it's in because of the shape. Yes. You know, it's not good for my joints. was, In reality, I'm just really, really bad at it. Okay. So you, you've decided you had enough. And you went, then you went into sales, didn't you? You thought, right, tech, I want to get into, seems like it's going to be a booming industry, which is a good.

26:06 eye to have in terms of picking up on the fact that that industry looked like it was growing. know, good for me. Finally, we're at a point where you did something right rather than being shit at it. Yeah, finally. So yeah, I saw that it was booming and started the interview process looking to upon an AE role because I'm a closer. So of course, of course we had to get a And how did you

26:32 pick the company, I'm assuming if it did research. About 20 times, about 20 times got rejected. And the reason why I got rejected was because they were all AU girls. And this was actually a very pivotal moment in my career, because it was, I feel like it was a beginning really for me. At that point when I got rejected, I thought to myself, like I've had this book and actually the book is...

27:02 nothing to do with work, I implemented it and the whole premise is that we're not the exception with the rule and we have to follow the rule. And for me, I was so fixated on becoming an AE because why shouldn't I? Why wouldn't I? I've got the experience and lots of people were just like, you know, younger than me that were AEs. So it didn't really make sense that, and because I then got so many rejections, I also understood through the interview process that

27:31 The rule is that you have to start off as an SDR in tech. And so, yeah, I swallowed my pride and just started my first job as an SDR at the age of 27. So, yeah, that is in terms of the normal entry point to an SDR role that would be to your point. is in life, let's say.

28:01 Yeah, I can imagine it was challenging some of those SDRs or AEs. The AEs were probably what? 24, 25? of them? 23, 24. But they had probably been in sales since they were 21, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you went in as an SDR company called Genie Connect, which was later acquired. But what was the product? It was a mobile engagement app. So you know how you go to events. And now we have mobile apps.

28:31 It's the application that you can download. can interact. You can network with people. So they were one very fast to build an application like that. Cool. Now I event any selling anything to do with events is can be difficult and quite a bad rep for selling in event related stuff. Isn't it? Is it, is that true? Didn't know. Didn't care. They wanted to bring me on as SDR. It was intact. I was like, great.

28:59 And then they paid me quite a good salary. I think, yeah, it was a good base salary at the time. So yeah, just, you indifferent. was like, great. Okay. So paint a picture for us. How long were you there? Before it was acquired, probably about a year. But I think I've got to tell you, it's so fundamental like that changed my life, that job did.

29:28 So I walked in into that role and it was a very small organization, there were about 30 people and I was part of the new cohort. There was another guy who was also like an SDR and I just, like I said before, late bloomer. So I felt like failure is not an option. I'm gonna give it 100%. And I did every single day, I gave it 100%. One of the very first two days that we did cold calling and this is a love.

29:58 be telling the story because yeah, very, very first, one of the very first few days, maybe it was a Thursday and it was about five o'clock and the guy who was booking a meeting, like who was an SDR, he'd actually been SDR for like maybe six months. So I was the new one. I was the only like new SDR. He then booked a meeting at 5 p.m. on that Thursday and he put his name on the board and then he was very happy and

30:27 My insides were like eating me up. I was like crumbling inside. was like, what do I do? And then there was a director sitting next to me. I mean, he's a director. was like a senior AE. I'd call him like an enterprise senior AE. And I said to him, well, you said that you have, um, US data. You have US data. Like, I start calling? And he's like, yeah, sure. So I started calling and it was like 6.30. I booked my first meeting and then he was just like,

30:56 high five, great. Then everyone started leaving the office and I stayed and then I booked another meeting and then I just continued, I continued working and then I booked three meetings the next day. I mean, and the next day I went in and so the guy walks in and he was like really happy and I'm not that passing because I always sound like a really like a weirdo person but I was a bit smug when he was just like yeah I booked a meeting and then he's like yeah but

31:25 That's what you also put to meeting, didn't you, before I left? And then I didn't say anything because you let the numbers make the noise that you looked around. I'm like, yeah, I had three meetings. And yeah, that was the beginning of that journey. And it just showed, like, you just, push through, you do the extra work. What if I didn't ask for the extra data? What if I decided that 5.30 was my time for me to go home?

31:55 I would not first of all achieve that, those three meetings. I wouldn't have got the confidence I needed. I know I would not have understood the value of you keep going every now it's closer to the yes, every now it's closer to the yes. And interestingly then, with that attitude, a month in, the CEO calls me. It's a small business, it's 7 p.m. And one thing that I would say,

32:22 And I was never allowed to say this to my team. And I still wouldn't say this to my team because I think it's really unfair. But something that I've said to like, many people that come to mentor me, one of the things, as I said, in all roles, I've learned something. There was a manager that I'd, I was working at retail store and they had maybe like four branches. And I got on with the manager quite well. And he said to me that, if you want to progress,

32:52 And if you want to like build life. And he actually gave me the best book recommendation of how to, it's called How to Win Friends, Dale Carney, How to Win Friends and Influence People. But he also said, I'm not going to give it to you, you have to go and buy it. There's very different value. So that was one gift that he gave to me. The other gift that he gave to me was,

33:13 helping me understand the value of just being present. And when I mean present, he said, oh, if by the way, if you want to become a supervisor, he was just giving me all these nuggets. He said, well, if you're the first one in and you're the last one out and, you know, there is an emergency, who's the manager going to look to? Like, we can't be that reliable person. And there was value in that. So I actually took that sort of approach and took it very seriously into the SaaS world. And I'd make it my mission.

33:42 I was a teacher's my sisters would tell you I was a teacher, like annoying teacher's pet at school, like so annoying, punchable face, even I would admit, like really annoying. And so yeah, I'd make him my mission because I knew the CEO would get in our seat and I'm like, okay, and my mission, be like, I need to make sure that I'm there before him. And then like be the last one to leave. And what that gave me fundamentally was first of all, having conversations that I wouldn't necessarily

34:11 ordinarily be exposed to because the leaders come in for and after and they might just want to go in because I want to head down. First of all, they see you working and you're not doing it just so that, you know, just for the visibility. But also there were so many occasions where I was on a call. I'm going to go off. I'm going to go off. No, this is is this is perfect. This is like this is really it's really fundamental, actually. So I remember there was it was around 7 p.m.

34:40 And I'd call this woman, there's so many lessons in this little story, like so many lessons. So I had been, I've persevered with this one woman. Every time I called her, she was like, oh, I'm really busy. Can you call me back? And like, when do you want me to call you back? And then I put the time in the diary. so, and I'm an STL, so I don't really know the product very well, right? I finally got through to her.

35:08 No, I didn't finally get to do that, a lie, because she kept telling me, she kept pushing back and she was like, hey, right, what is it? And I was like, I just want to explain to you, like the reason for my call and then you can decide like whether we should continue talking. And then I explained to her the reason I called and what we do and she was like, the reason why I've been so busy is because I've literally been looking for this. Can you do guides, do X, Y, Z? I didn't know anything about the tech, right, the detail. And as I was trying to just, I guess when you're young and you're naive, you're just trying to...

35:37 I don't know what is the right word to use. know, when you're just, I was just waffling and not really, you know, I didn't know what I was doing and I was just like saying things for the sake of saying things. So CEO wasn't too far. So he, just came over, he spoke and he explained exactly what we were able to do because it was, because it had different tracks, speaking events. We closed that deal in the next 24 hours. Right. So first of all, I had great learnings from.

36:08 like the CEO, because he was explaining to me things that I didn't have exposure to because I had limited, but I would not have been able to get that. Second of all, direct impact on revenue and also that helped like build that relationship, right? And even if it was like a relationship, it was more like, oh, so a bit more conversation because I think that even as leaders, you're busy. So that was the one example of like why it's really important actually to show up, be first one in, last one out.

36:37 that's always been, I think it's been fundamental, like truly fundamental. And my nephew who got into SAS, I gave him the same advice. And I was like, trust me, believe me how this is going to impact you, impact. And yeah, there was no question about it, because you're the first one in, right? Anyway, so.

37:02 Think about that kind of approach, right? And so I'm this like young girl, like SGRing, like doing the best job that I can. you know, he then calls me into the office, the CEO at 7 p.m. on a Friday. And he was like, I was like, you're really good. I was like, thanks. Obviously I wasn't as confident. I was very like, He's like, yeah, you're really good. We have a guy in the US, because he a US arm. He's in Chicago. He's based in Chicago. She's not very good. I think that, you know, I think you'd be really good at.

37:32 training him and I was like, oh yeah, of course I'd be more than happy to. And he was like, and I think because everyone knows about someone, your personal life, they knew that I didn't have any, basically anything like holding me down, right? And so he said to me, oh well, how do you feel about not doing it remote, but actually going there, going to Chicago? I was like, yeah, that'd be amazing. like, how do you feel about staying for two months? And then they basically got me an Airbnb and I...

38:00 basically that Sunday I flew out and it was the most magical experience of my life. And I always look back at that specific time period because, you know, I think that's what happens when you give like all your energy, like magic just happens. yeah, that's... I love it when I can just sit back for 10 minutes and not have to say anything. So that was full of insights, advice, I think that some of the highlights would say so just

38:30 hard work, just work ethic, intensity, I think the intensity delivered in the right way can definitely pay off openness to, to learn as in just take on feedback from the CEO, like sitting right next to you. I know I can definitely relate to the like teachers pet thing I can remember back at school, like I would write something and then I would seek validation of like, is this right? And then when it was Yes, that's right. I was like, Yes, right, continue.

39:00 But no, that's very, very, which used to, sounded like there was a lot of penny drop moments in that period in terms of, wow, this is enjoyable. I'm good at this. If I put work in, I will get the results. Was that the case? this like that start point of a proper career of sorts? Yeah, 100%. And I think one thing that I would add though.

39:23 I think a lot of people are now getting, getting the head around this, but I've always been a very big believer in like projecting. And so some people call it manifesting, manifesting. Some people call it, um, yeah, I dunno, manifesting, like attracting these things. But I, I, I used to literally, I still have my journal. I used to write down the amount of meetings that I'm going to be booking in like future tense. And I would say.

39:53 I would, and I really deeply, I had a deep belief at that point and that was a shift. And so if there was any difference, you I wonder like what the difference would have been if I had that same approach and that same attitude and energy, you know, in roles previous to that. But I really felt that, yeah, maybe there was a bit of like pressure on me because like I said, I was a late bloomer. yeah, it's this, it's do or die.

40:23 So it's quite a, we have another series that focuses on stoic philosophy and how that applies to sales, but it's quite a stoic way of thinking of that manifestation of I will achieve this. I know I can because I've got the results to show that I'm on the trajectory. It will happen if I continue doing this. So that's a, that's also a very, good piece of advice, whether you journal in the morning and the evening, like those five minute journals, six minute journals, whatever they're called gratitude and things you've learned.

40:51 It's always good to have this like concrete belief or expectation in yourself of where you can get based on, no, I am good enough to get that job. It sounds like it was an amazing year in terms of you crammed a lot into it. So why did you decide that a year was enough? I didn't decide that a year was enough. So I was an SDR. I was on a journey to becoming an AE. The company then got acquired and so I was an AE in a larger

41:21 organization and I didn't enjoy it. was, I guess what I learned was that I worked really well in smaller businesses. I love attention. So if I do a good job to be recognized for it and to see like the fruits of my, the direct impact that I'm making and when all of those things were taken from me and

41:51 I mean, the, yeah, the company completely, I mean, it was a completely different company. I went from working in Maidenhead to then moving to London and...

42:05 I wasn't, I hate using the word motivated, but I guess I just, I didn't care as much. don't know. No, but they say as managers, you need to understand the internal motivators for people. And if one of your internal motivators is you need to see the value of what you're delivering and then get positive haptic feedback back, then working in the company with a thousand, two thousand head count, you just don't get it. And I've worked for 34,000 head count, 10,000 head count.

42:35 40 headcount and I love the startup scale up. I don't think I'll go above scale up again, because you said you you you're a no name. You're just you're just a face where the senior leaders don't necessarily know who you are. And it's quite nice that everyone in the business knows who everyone is that oh, you're Yeah, you're a marketing you do content rather than just are you a marketing? I don't know if we met before. It's just not the same. So I get it.

43:01 Okay, so you learned loads, you knew what you were good at, you knew what you enjoyed. I take it you want for your next role, you were trying to find just a similar vibe to that, but bigger and better or? Yeah, well, this is when it gets even more juicier. I, the company got acquired, right? And because it's a small organization, you had like the CEO, who's a serial entrepreneur, he made a lot of money. So, you know, he was already a millionaire, but

43:30 made a lot of money. Then there's a COO who I used to work, I used to report to. Amazing guy. You know, as soon as like the sale happened, know, everyone went out and it's like, oh, you're really there now. was like, wow. All these people at the top. And I was like, well, they work hard, so they're doing the job anyway. They have equity. So I learned that. That was like very fundamental to my journey. was like, I want that. I want to be...

43:57 There was another guy in the company who'd started right in the beginning. And I was like, well, I'll have the career opportunities that if I want the progression, I'll get it. If I start like right in the beginning, right. Very intentional. I was like, right, that's why I need, cause I know that's how I'm going to be. Potentially at that time it was like, okay, maybe that's, that's what's going to make me rich. I want to be really there. That would be cool. And so.

44:27 I then started looking for roles and you won't see this in my profile, but you know, there was a gap. I started looking for roles specifically in startups. And so I was talking to recruitment consultants and there were all these like tech startups that were like starting out, but I would be maybe like the tenth salesperson. And I don't know.

44:52 And this is what I learned with the whole like steric stuff. It's like you have to be very intentional and you've always had lots of temptations that come your way. But if you have real like true belief, you focus on the path and you keep persevering because that's the right path for you. And so although I had all these, you know, shiny opportunities, I knew that it had to be something that was way more early on. And then I met James Isolay, who's CEO of Cognizant.

45:21 Now at the time when I met him, I mean, they didn't even have a customer. So when I met him, he'd, they wasn't a customer. He'd already invested quite a lot of his money and he was, you know, I don't know, like just tinkering with the idea of like bringing someone that sells in if he got the funding. Anyway, it was quite a, when I met him, I was like, this is the one, this is opportunity because he's the CEO. I'd be the only person working, oh, there was a CTO.

45:50 And I would be the person who looks after sales. I didn't know what I was doing. I was just very excited about the prospect that this is it, this is the opportunity. But the role wasn't quite ready to go live then. And so I had a dilemma, which was, I have all these other opportunities and I don't want to take a role and then drop it.

46:19 after a few months because this opportunity becomes alive. So what do I do? I'm like, that's not manifest. Like it's all going to work out. It's all going to work out. And so, and it did, I ended up doing some consulting for, somebody who only has like a experience and SDR experience to do consulting is just like, that just does not happen very often. And so there was a company and they just, yeah, I had like a short project. So I did that. And, um,

46:50 And I was, James, even today, he always makes this joke, he's like, Nasa, I've never, I've never been, I've never been pursued by a woman as hard as I've been pursued by you because I was like really relentless. I like drop him a note like every week, what's going on? Any update? What's going on? Any update? And yeah, after months, probably like six months, we met life. And then I started the role in January, 2017, I think.

47:18 How did you meet James? A very unsexy story. We all said, okay, we should come up with a better story. But it was just through a recruiter. So he went to an event and the recruiter is a really good friend. And James was just, you know, they're talking about his tech startup. yeah, Chris recruiter was like, oh, this is interesting. Maybe I can place and then he ended up placing me eventually.

47:43 Now for those who don't know who James is, mean, anyone in SAS will know, but for those who don't, talk to us about the company, the product, and then we'll dive into the juicy stuff, as you called it. Well, I think maybe that was a anti-climax there because I thought this juice was that I pursued him for so long. And actually what had happened was he said to me, I mean,

48:12 First of all, I think it's really important for people to know this, that I took a huge salary cut, like a huge salary. And I'm actually not embarrassed of like saying it, but I was on 40K and like a base as like pedicels in a new role, right? That's like, it was very, very low comparatively. And he actually did interview somebody else.

48:38 And he only, literally a year later, did he tell me this, he hired the guy and basically James tried to get me down to 35 and I was like, no, it's gotta be 40, take it or leave it. And then he hired the guy, the guy didn't show up. The guy didn't show up for work. And so I think maybe James didn't tell me because he was like, oh yeah, I did go down that route, but was not a good idea, but he later on told me that. So, so yeah, communism, B2B contact data provider.

49:08 By the I started, there was one customer, 2K in ARR. And actually what happened was, in the process, very early stages, spoke to the market and doing those demos and calls, basically evolved the product as it went. What the product we started off with was very, very different to the product that we ended up with.

49:35 Yeah, now Cognizm is like worth like half a billion. They have like thousands of employees and yeah, one of the fastest growing companies in the UK. I'm very, very, very proud to have been part of that journey any on. Yeah, I think most people will probably be familiar with Cognizm or the story of Cognizm. When you said you went in as like head of BD, which you

50:04 transparently put brackets glorified a he's who is kind of first sales person. So you built out that function? Yeah, I was an SDR and a I was what I kid you not. Please stop saying that keeps saying that. That's that's my word. You only have your your filler word.

50:26 I'd start working 7 a.m. Europe and then three o'clock I'd switch over to the U.S. East Coast, then West Coast. And I did that. I was working 17, 18 hours a day, every single day for the first year, like unquestionably, like I was doing that. And actually that was really good because what we'd learned was interestingly, I thought the U.S. was going to be the market. Like that was my hypothesis. But what we learned was actually UK was prime because UK were in the very, very beginning of like tech and...

50:56 sales enabled tech, which the US had already adopted. yeah. And obviously I'd imagine at that point there were big zoom, the likes of zoom info at that point in competing with zoom input didn't exist. we were, but you're right. There was discover all, but that was really too much of an issue. It was just an easier sell. And also those company, you'd have your standard and people will not remember this, but

51:27 When we started, because everyone was like, oh yeah, but what was it like with all these competitors? were no competitors in the UK. There was just us and then the status quo, which was outsourced teams or like having SDRs like interns source finding contact details for you. That was it. And so it was a huge education piece around like the UK market, which yeah, not a lot of people know that. Yeah. Yeah, I was like, because they,

51:53 saying this on Dragon's Den all the time of it cost millions to educate people on your new way of doing business, your new product. But then on the flip side, you said there were no competitors. So what was that like? Was it a hard sell because of the lack of education or was it easy because there was just no competitors? I mean, it's all like relative. No, it's it was hard. Obviously, it's hard. No, because it.

52:20 I mean, it depends, right? Or like which sector we were talking to. If it was a tech company, like a large tech company, then they were familiar with data providers. But if it was a smaller business that we started off at the low end, which was a really smart thing to do. Obviously, we had like a lower ACV, but we were trying to basically, yeah, penetrate the SMB bid market to begin with, and then later on enter us. And so there weren't that many competitors, no. Now, those who

52:49 might be familiar with your, I guess your history of cognizant in terms of like progression, you there was a lot of progression in the time there was it around five years you were there? No, no, no, less than five years, three years. Three years. So I mean, okay, so the rate of progression is even more impressive. So talk to us about the three years just in chunks. Which I do. Yeah. Are you gonna say I kid you not? No.

53:18 say that. When I, I always said I learned more in the first year of Cognizant than I did the entirety of like the last 10 years prior to that. So it was a very steep learning curve for me. I just had to show up for myself, had to show up for others in a way that I hadn't done before. And it just

53:48 Yeah, I the best out of me, I feel, because there's like, again, failure was an option. There was so, if I'm being completely honest.

54:00 There's like two different sides to me. There's this, know, teacher's pair loves to work hard. And, know, when I'm in it, I'm just like 100 % when there's also this like wild side to me. Like, I love having fun. I love just being like reckless, like a bit. And so, you know, when I studied my GCSEs, as every teenager, that's like, I mean, I was...

54:28 you know, having problems at home. so despite my parents who really wanted me to study and have a great education, I decided to literally just write my name on the exam papers and just walk out. They did not care. So I left school, like no GCSEs. And I was a rebel. then when I was at uni, I mean, I literally didn't go to any lecture or any seminar on the first year. And the second, so I'm, I have this like two different, like almost like, not personality traits, but like different kinds of sides to me.

54:58 And when I was at uni, think that most people probably were like, hmm, is she going to make it? Just because of the way that I used to show up for myself, I not going to your seminar. I I still came away with an honorary degree, but I just wasn't as studious as the others. And that's just the truth. And then in recruitment,

55:27 because I wasn't really good at it. I didn't feel really good about my performance and how I was perceived. And perception is, well, clearly it was important for me. And then after that, I, well, after I went through the SDR and then the company was acquired, there was lots of people that I worked with that never worked with before. And I didn't bring in that same energy. So they were probably thinking, what should I Cause I just didn't care. Right. And I think that when I then entered cognizant, I was like, Nazma, like this is it, step up.

55:55 because I had all these kind of like...

55:59 Yeah, these perceptions that I wanted to like, not overcome, but just I wanted to be the person that I knew that I could be. And so that's why I just like, just gave it 100 % and just focused on. And also like head of sales. I mean, I had no, I had, I did not know how to basically create a bloody report in like sales force and whatever, ever manage, manage anybody in my entire life.

56:24 And so if you think about putting something on your LinkedIn, it's like head of cells, I can imagine how many people's eyes were like rolling. And so which they rightly should have. And so I think that definitely, yeah, motivated me to just like, you've got to make it work because the opposite would be embarrassing. The self-destructive rebellious streak. There's a, I think there's data to show that people who have

56:50 high levels of intelligence and IQ, if they're not professionally stimulated, they look to rebel against the lack of like professional stimulation. would you say, cause it sounds like once you were in that SDR role and you were like, wow, I'm good at this, look at the results, I get more out than I'm putting in if I put enough in, would you say that as long as you're motivated, creatively stimulated, challenged, you don't want to rebel?

57:18 Or do you always have that like... No, no, no, no, I don't. Or is it when you get distracted, you're like, I'm just, I'm not focused. Let's rebel. That would be fun. Yeah. But it's not even like a thought. It's just like this, like this free spirit that I have. And actually one thing that I found really interesting, just like thinking back to, you know, I always say this, the thing that I loved about my time at Cognizant. And actually even when I think back to the SDR role.

57:46 is I could just completely be authentically myself. Completely. And so, you you have this kind of idea, idea of what it means to be successful. When you're in recruitment, like you wear your suit, and everyone's very polished, and like you just behave in a certain way, and we all know, you know, we put ourselves a bit wild as well. A bit too wild. But in general, you know, there's this, you know, there's this persona of somebody who is in leadership that behaves...

58:14 or access that away and you have to be completely polished when it comes to your presentations, the way that you carry yourself. And I remember like James just...

58:25 Yeah, he didn't like hide his mistakes, which was one of very first like that. was like the most amazing thing because I'd never had a manager who was just like, oh, not that he'd make mistakes, but you know, something as small as, I don't know. I can't really give an example. Like if it was like running late and or like a presentation and something was missing, it was just like, it was okay. And I think that I, yeah, it made me feel very much like I could just be completely myself.

58:55 So I believe that you need to bring the all yourself to work, right? Not like a part of it, like all yourself. And so having a place, a place where you're encouraged to be yourself, really important. So in the, I like the leading by example thing of not being, not expecting others to behave in a different way that you behave yourself by hypocritical, whatever you want to call it. If you're late, it's like, look, go to be honest.

59:22 I slept through my alarm rather than saying, oh, you know, traffic was all force, not my fault. You just own it and you just set that standard. really like that. So cut back to sort of the career trajectory or whatever we want to call it. You went in as head of BD, which was a glorified day as you put it. You then went up to VP of sales and then eventually CRO. So talk to us about in the role changing.

59:52 in terms of like you went in as a glorified A, and then how did that change when you were VP of sales? Were you managing? What was the team size? What did it look like? Yeah, within nine months, well, less than I was managing, I'd hired two SDRs. And the way that I built the engine was that we would have like certain capacity. And so when I had the two SDRs, they were working really hard to fill my diary. When I was at capacity, then I'd give them some of my opportunities and then I'd back higher.

01:00:21 And that's how I built, that's how I built the team organically. And so we had revenue targets and I did not miss a target, not even one month, except for March or winter for the team. So there's a lot of capacity planning and just structure to just make sure that I was able to get to where I needed. I think the, you know, James is also, you know, sometimes you you need people to see things in you that you don't see in yourself. So for me, I'm like, oh wow, this is so amazing. I didn't.

01:00:52 I definitely would have maybe wanted to go down the V- Not down, but to progress. But-

01:01:02 I don't know, but perhaps it was just the company and how we were growing. I felt like anything is possible. Like, that's what I want, why can't I? I wasn't looking at time. I like, what do I need to do? Tell me exactly what I need to do, who I need to be in order to become a VP. So we laid out, pen and paper, signed, sealed.

01:01:27 And was like, right, that's it. And then I was just like laser focused on what I needed to do in order to get to the BP. And so I was already managing people, but I still had my own quota. So when I became a VP of sales, I did not have any quota. And then it was just entirely the team. So that was the kind of like the change and then the responsibility, the responsibilities. I mean, I was working.

01:01:53 I think the mistake that a lot of people do is they're just focused on the performance and they focus on, okay, I didn't hit these numbers. You have to think about the person that you need to become in order to have that role and to be successful. And I think I was pretty good at that. That I understood that we might be in this as well. And then I was walking in every day, like projecting the person that I wanted to be. And so, you know, I've always, I've always been had this, like, infinity, like self-development books, even like, you know,

01:02:22 If I go into like, just gravitate towards that section. I've spent summers in like, in the self-help section. So I'm always thinking about how to improve myself. I think that thinking about the person that I needed to be and projecting that in my day to day, as if that's already happened, really helped me. And of course, like the work is in get done anyway, right? There's a couple of bits to highlight there. So I think you were.

01:02:49 Talking about the change of having a quota and then not having a quota, did that, I feel like that would have been quite a tough change for you because having a quota is that sort of, that thing that's hanging above your head that keeps you motivated. I've got this number to hit. So was that difficult in not, I know you're responsible for the overall number of the team, but not having a quota on your head, was that a difficult change for you? No, because it was, I still had a quota. It just wasn't an individual. I didn't need to do it. I wasn't like,

01:03:19 managing deals, that was the only change, if anything, it made my life easier. Because I'm going to focus on re-elevating the team and like just focus on like improving them. So the quota always is there. And then the self-awareness is always good. think self-awareness, I think, gets more important the older you get, or at least the older you get, the more aware of self-awareness you are. And I think understanding your weaknesses.

01:03:47 Quite a few people are afraid of weaknesses into like I know I just said that I don't play golf anymore because I'm terrible at it and that is a weakness. But I think people are afraid of admitting the gaps they've got in themselves. Whereas other people will hone in on those and just be like, no, that's that's literally that's all I'm going to think about for the next year is just doubling down on that and getting getting better. How do you

01:04:15 How does that work for you in terms of you set like annual goals, like yearly goals? Or is it just a dogged like I want to be better? So I do have a process and my process is very unique to me. And I've been doing this for many, many years, so I don't think about like six months or 12 months in advance. I look at the next three months. So I literally did this like during my journey from VP to CRO. So it's like, it's a nice segue into that.

01:04:43 So there were things that I need to, I did not know. I'm not marketing, I'm a salesperson, but as a CRO, I have to look after marketing. There's a lot of things I need to learn and I need to understand about marketing. And also, I think it was because I just like climbed the ladder so quickly and I was an exec. There was so many things that I just did not know that I needed to learn. And so what I tend to do, and I still do this now, is I'll list out all of the things that are my gaps.

01:05:11 and then I would write a statement.

01:05:16 I have my friends like roll their eyes at me and even my team. So I really don't give a shit because it's work. So I then write a statement, which is the opposite. So for example, one of the challenges that I had was I was quite, I wanted to be really approachable and I love that fact that I was approachable, but actually that was actually doing me a disservice. I was like, okay, what is the opposite to that? It's like firm and fair. That's what I want to do. And so then I'd write a statement about myself to the third person. And so.

01:05:44 As an example, would be like Nazma Kerburn is an award-winning sciaro. She is reliable, dependable. And then I'd describe myself and then I would... And anything that I'm, for example, if somebody isn't very confident, then I would talk about situations that I would... As if it's already happened, right? And so that's literally what I do. I still do that today.

01:06:12 I think it really helps me like put myself into a space where that exists and helps me embody it in day to day because it's real when it's almost like in front of you, like in words. Yeah, you spoke about positive manifestation and there's the old like...

01:06:37 saying something over and over and over again in the mirror or speaking to yourself in the mirror in the morning. Like that's the old, that's like an old version of doing it. You're just writing it down. And there is, I think Stephen Bartlett has spoken with people who say that when you write something down, it becomes more tangible, more, more real. Like there's a, there's a piece of paper in existence in the world. That's is a statement. Like you've written it down. You've made a statement. Did you, is that a poster note? Is it a book? Do you stick it somewhere? it on

01:07:07 And all I would say is anyone that gives a shit for this, even like James is like one of the successful people I know, he has his own version, he does as well. So, you know, I think it's really important because as we're going through, we're always thinking about how we grow, how we evolve, what type of person we want to be. And it genuinely helps because it drives action, right? So it's not like, oh, I'm going to do this. It drives action because you see that that's that.

01:07:35 That's what you need to do. And then you just show up every day and it's just part of like my and it's not just like writing writing it out and letting it go. I do like my gratitude journaling in the morning and then I'll just like have a look at it. yeah. Do you know what that would if you said you've got a stack of them, deck of them, I would make a very good book.

01:07:56 There's loads of those style of books where people publish like their memoirs or their journals like what was it Matthew McGonaghy's Green Lights is him looking back at his journals. Like if you have a deck of those manifestations or those statements of where you want to be. mean, that could be a line. do. Yeah. Yeah, that would be a really good book. So there's an idea for you. That was free. But I five percent of all royalties. OK, so. What was?

01:08:25 Give us some of your favorite or biggest wins, like the big sort of things you look back and you're like, I'm super proud of that during that particular time.

01:08:39 So I used to have this thing that I'd been like, interview somebody and I really liked them and I wanted to make an offer to them and they had to accept obviously. mean, I couldn't imagine a world if I really liked somebody and that would really upset me and yeah.

01:08:59 When people used to come in for an interview and I really liked them, I would just say to them, like, she takes this job, I'm going to change your life. Like, I will change your life. And I really meant it. And I think it was such a good thing for me to like say, project, because first of all, I did. And what I mean by change people's lives, like there was every single person that joined the team as an SDR. My objective was to get them to AE and make six figures within the first year. And I did that.

01:09:27 time and time and time and time again. So I'm very, very proud of that. I came from this sales recruitment, especially they're very tight with their money. And then I work for companies that I've been very generous. And so I wanted to make sure that the organization that I build, the sales organization, have been very, very generous. And yeah, it's a career worth pursuing. if you have organizations, the sales organization that was built at the

01:09:56 at the time and even now, I mean, that just motivates you. But like, imagine that you're a graduate, you're 21 years old. By the time you hit 22, you make it six figures. That's amazing. So I was very, very proud of like the career progression that I was able to enable. One thing that I said, because I'm all about projecting, I'd say we had like a sales kickoff. like, what my goal is, want to create like the best, I want us to be the best sales organization in all of Europe. Like I want us to be and

01:10:25 You know, time and time again, so many awards and so many people have just like come up to me and they've just been like, the team is amazing. And I genuinely, like, will fight tooth and nail. The best salespeople in the Texas, like, during that time was definitely Cognizant, like for sure. And people use all, I have a mentor and he said, someone said to me, where do I find good salespeople? He's like, building on the 11th floor where Cognizant is, that's like the best.

01:10:55 So I'm really proud of that.

01:11:06 Just like, I don't, so I'm just proud of the people.

01:11:15 You know, the thing is, I wanted to say, oh, about like the growth, but I think it sounds really bizarre, but I think it was inevitable. You just do the work. So it's all the other things that matter, the count, like the culture, the fun. Like I'm so happy I had so much fun. Like it wasn't, yeah, I worked 16, 18 hours a day. I had the best time of my life. had literally the best time of my life. I still have the best time of my life, but you know, it's not, it wasn't all like hard play and I have friends for life. So, yeah.

01:11:43 So it sounds like the stuff you're most proud of is the things you couldn't quantify. So qualitative rather than quantitative in that you're most proud of, which is, which is nice. Cause obviously sales is inherently a quanta, quantity based, a volume based thing, but it's, it's nice that it sounds like it's relationships and culture and career development for people that are in your team, which is really, really nice. You spoke about fun.

01:12:12 which I know is why things came to an end for you. So talk to us about the coming to the end of that period and fun. Well, COVID happened and there was lot of intensity at work. I found it really difficult to emotionally regulate myself. I'm quite fiery. And I think in that whole COVID period where it was like, I was at the desks and

01:12:41 Like you don't have that interaction. It just like sucked the life out of it. And it's like, I don't want to work. I don't want to work for the sake of just like just working. It has to be fun. So the personality was removed because of the COVID restrictions and it sounds like it became more clinical and less less sociable in terms of the environment. It's not sociable. It's like the heart. Right. It was like my

01:13:11 The soul. Yeah. In my day to day, which is important. Interesting. In my soul. No, I like how you place so much value on that and not just the figures. Because for most people, will career choices have primarily been based on monetary or title based things. And it's quite nice that you kind of stay true to your values in terms of what you were.

01:13:41 motivated by we talked about those internal motivations, one of them being fun, and it sounds like culture and sort of, so I would say, fun isn't isn't something that motivates me. It's definitely important. But I would say that just on that basis, like the job title definitely was a motivator. Like, that was motivated PPCR. There's a reason why I was I was very like title hungry. And I think the title is important. And this is just my

01:14:08 perception of the matter, like it does count, that's just a reality. Like the money also, like I knew that if I put in the work, the money will come. And so I started off with a shit salary, but I knew the outcome was going to be there. And it's going to be far greater than anyone else. it has been, it's been like far greater than any other kind of trajectory. But it's because I gave my heart to it and I gave it a hundred percent and I would not have been able to get the financial outcome from the business if

01:14:37 It was just like structured. So you have to think outside of just numbers, which I feel that I was, I'm not short-sighted, I'm long-sighted. Like I think that was also something important because a lot of people, I want to have your trajectory. want to, and people that were at communism after I left were like, is there any opportunity? And I would send them opportunities. They're like, no, it's like too much, like they're making 150 a year. They're like, no, I don't want.

01:15:05 Not a lot of people are really taking risks and that's just the reality and I did not realize that to be the case. So and even I mean we'll go on to talk about what doing now, but even now like I'm just not sure excited. I just know that it's going to happen. Okay. So, um, that was, what was it? Was that three years? Did you say that chunk? Yeah, three and a half, four years, four years. Yeah. Okay. So you, you decided to leave. How do you go from that?

01:15:33 In terms of that, it's almost like an incubator of just growth development in, you know, success on every metric. How do you follow that? Well.

01:15:49 It's a great book, Michael Stinger, called Surrender Experiment, and I read it probably a year before that happened. And the whole premise of the book is that to let go, and it follows this guy who's had this amazing career, and he hasn't really been much instructed. He hasn't been instructed. I think I got really into my head at the time, and I was like, oh, I don't want to this opportunity because then I just need to commit. And I almost heightened everything too much. If I'd just taken the same approach as I did previously, which was recruitment to take the job, know, tech company to take the job.

01:16:18 things just always tend to work out for me. And I didn't want to take a full-time job because it's a big role as well, right? Like being an exec in any SaaS role is a big commitment for the company and for me. And I knew that I wasn't a hundred percent in any company that I was exploring. So then I have a friend who basically was starting to become People's Sales Impact Academy.

01:16:42 and he had about 200K in AR and then I joined as like a fractional CRO. So I basically worked three days a week and I helped build that to two million. I did it way faster than I in communism. Loved it because love, first of all, when you do it once, and you always hear people say to you, not in so many words, but it's such a, they're like, I heard.

01:17:09 People just say, not directly, but, oh yeah, mate, you know, it's just like a one trick pony, like you've only done it once. So I think I wasn't up to prove it, but it just happened that, you know, I gained a lot of confidence in my ability to execute because I've done it more than once. I also learned that I'm not even that there's 20 people, think, in team. I can't even do 20 people. It was really hard for me. I really struggled with navigating so many different people because I was so used to being the first employee in a company.

01:17:40 and just having visibility of everything and just, you know, that needs to be done and then it's done. Either I do it or whoever I sign into it does it and everyone has the same level of intensity and it was just not the case at all. Which is fine because it's not my culture, it's not my business, right? With communism I was... James is CEO's based in Switzerland, right? So I was in the UK office. The UK office was the head office so I had like a lot of autonomy.

01:18:09 And a lot of, yeah, I got so used to everything is burning to the ground. It needs to be solved. That energy wasn't brought in other organizations. I was dumbfounded. Yeah, because, and then it was a bit more of a slow, they wanted it to be a slower pace. They wanted it to be a lot of focus on culture, because I'm very performance. The culture comes afterwards. There's not going be any, if you're not driving, if the...

01:18:37 Performance comes before like culture in my opinion because at the end of the day It's like when you're good at something right like how do you feel? How do you show about work? How do you communicate? How does it want to feel about themselves? And so everyone's in the job to work and get better and do good and to perform and we need to be driving the team towards that Rather than it just being like when it's not performance I feel that sometimes we can get very wishy-washy with like the cultural stuff not that that happened there

01:19:06 But I think I'm way more on the other end. I'm very like performance. Like driven. So yeah, that was and then what happened was they wanted me to go full time. I just couldn't do it because I knew it was the right fit for me. And then they hired a VP of sales and then I set free. So you were kind of in a period of trying to figure out or trying to try and find the right opportunity, the next opportunity and you weren't going to

01:19:36 yourself fully until you felt that it was the right opportunity for you. Yeah, which wasn't really, yeah, that was silly of me, I think. I also did, I was very lucky with Cognizant because, yeah, we had many opportunities to take our second degrees. And so there was, you know, there was a big period between SIA and then the next role. And yeah, it was only because I was like fortunate enough to like take liquidity out and not many people would have the same opportunity.

01:20:06 or have the opportunity or even like the approach because I was thinking about this. Like everyone's aiming for this like number and I'm just like this is the only time that exists today. And so yeah, I've been joking to my friends saying that I've taken like, I just don't want to think about it. And I literally didn't. I just live my life without a job for very long time. And until I was like, right, I can't, I'm going mad now and I need to, I need to find a job. And then the next role came knocking on my door.

01:20:35 And how long was that? way you say like without having a job? Yes, a very long time. And what did you travel? Like what did you do? I I traveled so much. I've traveled the entire world. I don't know. I've just, just like lived and just like didn't care about anything other than just like enjoying myself and enjoying time with my family. And then I was, there was another tech startup that I started working on.

01:21:05 someone that I knew that it would work out. So there were like little projects that I was like working on but nothing that was like career like okay I need to work or I need to yeah 100 % focus. But that's um so that's quite interesting that someone who is as intense and uh driven to to take the time to to live in the moment and actually because I was there this whisper in the back of your head of

01:21:35 I'm on a career trajectory. Should I just stick at it or? No. I think it's because I've just had my career trajectory has always been very different to like the standard always has been. And so it was like, and I also don't I don't have a. What do you.

01:21:54 when you

01:21:57 I don't feel that it's just going to, I want to say like limited mindset, more of that it's just going to like run out. Like, I think there's this plenty of like life still left and I'm not going to go without. So I don't worry that it's all of a sudden, like the tap's going to turn off. Like I don't have that limited like mindset that all of a sudden I'm not going to. Yeah, there's plenty. I have an abundant mindset. That's it.

01:22:25 So you've done it and there you're like, well, I've got the proof I can do it again. No, more of I just don't want to do it. I just want to do this. And that's it. I think. Yeah. So there was no part of me that was like, oh, I have to do this because it wasn't like my, never, when I became an SD, I like, I want to be a CRO. I only wanted to become a CRO. And I was like, okay, I think I'm, I think I'm good with this VP. it what's the next thing for me?

01:22:55 what I need to be and that's it. I'm very three months dense, like literally I'm just three months dense and there's no, yeah for me, and it's so interesting because I saw a friend like last year and he was saying but it's so interesting now because he could just stay and then work and I continued and it was such a baffling like thing for him to say for me because I just

01:23:23 like the start-up thing but I don't but I've got to I forget that other people have like the different aspirations but that it was never my aspiration my aspiration is just being the best version of myself like genuinely that's my aspiration like being like the role like three months my role model in like six months time you know what Matthew McConaughey like Sweet and Oscar that's genuinely what I want rather than this kind of this job title and yeah it's just

01:23:51 And maybe maybe I haven't always been like this, but it's someone who I have been for the last few years. I'm just Googling because there's a quote that sums that up. It's something like be the person today that you want to be 24 hours from now. yeah, thank you for it. Be the person that will thank you tomorrow.

01:24:17 Yeah, yeah. Chris Williamson talks about it on his podcast, but I can't remember the exact quote. So how did you then decide, come to a decision on the what followed that then? Because that sounds like an amazing few years. Like, what brought what not brought that to an end? But what was the yeah, what was the point where you said, right, my next block, my three month block of focus, how did you get come to that? I was like, I have a very bougie lifestyle. So

01:24:46 Yeah, it's like, it's very hard to just, I wouldn't have too much left. too much left. I basically, it just was not sustainable. And also I was feeling like I was going mad. So I was like, okay, right. I need to some stability in my life and I need to find a role and just go all in. I hadn't done that before. So this time I was like, okay, I'm going all in. The guy that I met years ago at a networking event in San Francisco. And so.

01:25:16 We always stayed in touch and every time that he came to London, he was like, oh, let's go for dinner. so I had, obviously COVID happened, so I hadn't spoken to him in years. So perhaps I might've met him like four years before then. Anyway, so he reached out, like, I've got a great opportunity. He was becoming CEO of a P, of a P, well, he was, he was part of a P firm, but he was moving over as CEO. And I just said to straight away, was like, I'm just not a P girl, I'm not a startup.

01:25:45 I know that this isn't for me. Anyway, he said, it's like a startup, Nazma. Like we've never, we haven't really done the market before and we really want to like penetrate it. We've done really good with enterprise, just explore the opportunity. Anyway, I explore the opportunity and I was like, yeah, let's do it. Like new beginning. So I started and I very quickly found out.

01:26:14 why I am not good at corporate organizations. mean, first of And why is that? Everything's so slow, like painfully slow. And I know I'm intense, but even I was like, hey, it's fine. I really struggle with that. It was painfully slow. And-

01:26:43 So if you think about my, I've accelerated, my career's been like, accelerated, so there's of course gonna be things that I've missed out that I haven't really been able to nail as a professional, as an exec. And one of those things, and I'm gonna just admit it, is that I don't, I haven't mastered the art of like getting people, know, all like galvanized about like a project or something I'm doing because I'm like, okay, well, this is the project, this is what we're gonna do, and we're getting it done, that's it.

01:27:13 That is a working corporate. There's lots of different people that I have to like basically spend time with and educate. So that was very big learning for me that, you know, when I went in and I just was talking about, you know, the approach that it was, it was very, yeah, that was very interesting for other people. they're like, why is this the first time that we're I'm like, no, because we're going to do it. We launched it. What do mean we launched it?

01:27:42 get moving with this kind of stuff. that was like a culture shock for them. was definitely, I was a culture shock for them for sure. Because they were all very like traditional, I'd say like old school, like tech companies, the larger ones, know, the SAPs, Coupa, those kind of tech companies where I come from like a modern tech background. And I'm energy. And so I think that was, there was definitely like a cultural mismatch. And I...

01:28:12 Cultural mismatch.

01:28:16 I would have continued, I think. would have pushed myself. One thing I'm really good at is quitting. I'd say, Stephen Bartlett says that I'm very good at quitting. very good at quitting. I think out my own ego, I would have, but there was just too much.

01:28:36 Yeah, I just, it was easy to describe it. It was just, I would not have lasted very long. And I'm also really like straight talking. It's just, it's worlds apart. Yeah, worlds apart for me. So yeah, no, I went at my time at Admiral. Arguably, I mean, they're only what 30 odd years old, but even 30 odd years is

01:29:00 enough for that company to be very, very slow. Like you brief something into the studio and it'd be like, oh, a campaign 16 weeks. And I'm like 16 weeks to deliver a campaign. I'm like, no, two weeks worth of work. Come on. And I couldn't have, I definitely couldn't survive in a big corporate. But the pace is just too slow. But the thing that I say is one thing I am like proud of is like in the first month, like we've got

01:29:26 my STRs, I mean, they absolutely killed it. But they literally calling off the spreadsheets and mobile, a spreadsheet Excel and mobile because the thing is I wasn't going to tell and obviously like these things take time because they have like different processes and fine tech and then integrating it. So that's just the way it is. I understood that and that was fine. And I still pushed through and I still performed and I was still, I knew that I was able to execute. There was no question, but it's like.

01:29:56 It would have, there was just too much adjustment for me that I don't think. then I felt that I couldn't be, and because of the amount of adjustment that I can't be authentic to myself. So I'll never perform right when I'm not myself. Now, before we jump into the sort of round up quick fire questions, tell us about what you're doing now, because that's, you know, you're still there, you're still learning, but what, what is it? We haven't touched on it. I'm

01:30:22 I'd be those watching or listening are probably very curious to understand what is ticking the boxes for you now in terms of all of these traits and value things that we've we've been speaking about the last 90 minutes. So what are you doing? So co-founder, B2B influencer marketing company called Fluenza. So funnily enough, CEO founder is my first SDR Cognizm, Hector Forward. And so it's like full 360. And we're just having so much fun together.

01:30:51 what we do is we help connect brands with thought leaders, subject matter experts and connect with them all through like sponsored content on LinkedIn, YouTube, yeah, helping drive like ROI through a part of with those who really have an engaged authority. So is it kind of like a marketplace platform where you can find people, connect with people or? So we, we,

01:31:19 Building out the tech at the moment, what we are predominantly is that we're running as an agency. So the way that techsas works is they all say, like, do things at a scale. And so we've basically understood the entire process. We work more than 50 rounds like today, and we really intimately understand that process and we're really tech to help enable the brands and the influencers on our platform. But outside of that, we actually execute the campaigns end to end.

01:31:46 Ah, interesting. Okay. And then I guess you take a, are you representing these influencers as in you take a management fee from the influencers or? we don't. We basically have a relationship with the brand. We don't charge anything to the influencers. And so they pay us a subscription. And that's kind of like, I'm self a sass girl. And then they pay us like a subscription and then we, and then they give us a budget, they assign us a budget. And then we basically distribute that across.

01:32:16 And then you make that work with the community of freelancers and influencers and stuff that you have. Yeah. A lot of them are sourcing, right? So if, for example, we have cyber security and somebody's running a campaign, a lot of the times we do the custom sourcing because it's very specific. We look at content. There's a lot of work that goes into ensuring that it's the right match. it's all organic. It's authentic because nobody likes being sold to.

01:32:45 Well, it's very, very interesting. I look forward to catching up in 12 months, 24 months time to dig deeper like we have done for the rest of your career. But to round up then we'll do some quick fire questions. So for anyone listening or watching, what would you say are your top three tips for career progression?

01:33:09 One.

01:33:11 like focus on today, to be really pro, like be focused on being like really excellent, really excellent at today. And then somehow you need to balance, like understanding like what the next step is and also like learning those like skills, those qualities, not necessarily like the job, but the person that you need to be. And then the third.

01:33:39 I say is my favorite quote, which is nobody cares. Just work fucking harder. sorry. That's So everyone laser focus. Yeah. Yeah. I love the, I think that's a very good summary of everything we've spoken about. So laser focus on what's right in front of you. The challenge is right in front of you. Um, do the work or do, do the job that you want, whether that's, if that's the next job, fine. You got to, sometimes you've got to just

01:34:07 This has come out quite a few in quite few conversations. You've got to do stuff that's kind of out of your job description a lot if you want to progress. And then the next one, no one cares. Just just fucking do it, which is which is a nice one, which speaks to the work ethic. And I think that's a good reality check for some of the generation nowadays who expect really high salaries without the work ethic to go with it. Unfortunately, any I think I know the answer to this because you've touched on it already. Any regrets from

01:34:36 your career today.

01:34:39 Well, not really. I guess the only thing is...

01:34:45 I think when people ask that question about regrets, I guess it's because you also want to, as a viewer, you want to be thinking about, what can I avoid? And I would just say, just quit, just quit faster. You know something's not right for you, just quit. You don't ever regret the things that you do do or only ever regret the things that you don't do in life. Yeah, there is a, you mentioned Stephen Barlow, I think it's in his book of 33 Laws of Business and Life, or whatever it's called. I think it's the...

01:35:14 quit fast and quit often or something. It's like if something's not working, why would you, it's that whole definition of madness is doing the same thing and over and over again, expecting different results. Like if you've tried it three times and it's still not working, just quit and move on to the next thing. Cause you could be, you could be slowing down finding the right thing for you or delaying. Yeah. So that's, that's a very, very good one. We've touched on obviously your, your current

01:35:43 your current role and current goals, but what would be next? You said you always have this like mind of where you want to go next. So what is the next thing? Um, next thing I'd say right now is for us to hit the 1 million mark in revenue. So that's what we're aiming for. Which would be a very nice. Yeah. It's just, it's just a nice number, isn't it? To hit that. Yeah. Just as like, yeah, nice round of the number and it's, it's, it's an, it's an, an X episode. It's the next milestone. I think it's really important for everyone to have.

01:36:12 you know, a goal, the next goal in place. again, I think I know the answer to this based on your internal motivators, but do you have like an end goal? Is there a top of a mountain that you're trying to reach or is it just you've said about it, like just be the best version of yourself? Is it just this continuous cycle? It's a continuous cycle. Like there's no end goal. Like there's no, and I also do think that I just live my life like

01:36:40 I have everything. One of the guys that works for me now, he said to me, like, Nazan, you're just great. used to always think, well, you know, like, of course you're going to say you're a CRO. And he's like, now I think to myself, and then I thought to myself, he's saying to me recently, he's like, well, what was I like before then? Like, I was thinking like this even before this. So I always have this like abundant mindset that I am everything that I need. And there's just nothing.

01:37:09 There's no and inside is just like enjoying life is just you need to like live every single day, work hard and enjoy it. It's It's good. think it makes me think of something my gran always said. She was like she was, I don't know, like 85 at the time and she was like, you can't spend money when you're 85. She's like, I've paid my heating bill. I've got food. What else can I? She wasn't buying clothes and shoes and holiday. She's too old. So she was like, enjoy it.

01:37:36 whilst you've got it, enjoy it. And I think that's a very, very nice message to finish on. So yeah, just want that. Yeah, go on, on. That's really big like learning lesson that I so because I've had this mindset, obviously a lot of my friends, my family are just like Nazma, like this is ridiculous. And I remember when I took this time off, like when I basically, just make a joke, I say it was early retirement. And then I went to Tokyo and I was

01:38:04 in Tokyo, and I remember because you have to walk everywhere. And so all these people that were retired, like American or British, and they were struggling, they had to walk everywhere. And they were really struggling to enjoy themselves and to just like actually...

01:38:19 Enjoy the fruits of the labor. And I just remember thinking, thank fuck I do it this way. Because what like tomorrow isn't, isn't guaranteed for anybody. Right. And so there's really good, the good book for like Dive with Nothing. I recommend everyone reading it. But yeah, it's like, what are you waiting for? Just enjoy your life today. There's quite a few good book recommendations. I think there's like four or five you've given. that's always good. Yeah, I'm avid book reader.

01:38:49 All right, one final bonus question then. Favorite book? Self-development wise.

01:39:06 or a top three if it's too challenging. That is really, really, really, really challenging. Because every book has different learnings. Which spoke to you most though, which was the most profound in terms of when you put it down.

01:39:22 Yeah, I'd say how to be friends and influence people I think is like just is written in 1936 and even today everyone can resonate with it and yeah, it's just hard and we also different so we read the same book and from different perspective, right? Based on your age and your experience. yeah, it's hard. Well, there you go. Okay. I believe that's our longest ever episode and I think it was I'm glad. No, I'm glad we took the extra time.

01:39:50 because there's some really, really good advice, stories that I wasn't expecting in terms of like your internal motivators and be the honesty of why you left and what works for you and what doesn't. So I think that was really, really good. So thank you for joining me. And for those watching or listening, I think this is going to be, we're about halfway through season two in terms of recording. So there's a few more episodes left. So we will see you in the next episode. Jamie.